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Thread: Stop that tankin sh*t mentality

  1. #21
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Thing is, IMO, trying to win short term doesn't necessarily means that we won't win in the long run. To me, JV can really be the guy we build around. To me, whether we trade him or not, DeMar is a really good piece to this team. To me, both of our PF can be important pieces on a winning team. To me, Lowry can definitely be a starting caliber point guard on a winning team, even though a lot of point guards would do a better job than him running our team. To me, Ross is a highflying young player with a lot of potential at the 2 spot. Landry Fields, say what you want about his shooting stroke and his contract, he's a winner. Acy, he's a winner. Novak played a role on a playoff team + great shooter. Augustin don't play well so far, but remember what he was doing just a couple years ago in Charlotte; give him some time. Buycks could be a primary backup PG in the NBA. Stone, from what I saw, can definitely play. Daye can to. Gray would play on the Miami Heat. Not a joke right here.

    Looking at it this way, I just think we have (Masai have) all the tools to build a winning team, in the long run, without tanking. Don't forget all the draft picks we have. Free agency. Trades. But please, please Masai. Not tanking.

    *EDIT* LOL I forgot Rudy. Well, borderline all star, 27 years of age, will find his game. I'm not saying we should not trade him. I'm not saying we should neither.
    You are definitely boosting this team to much. There are more negatives than positives about this team than you just mentioned. DeMar still can't shoot. Lowry is still selfish and too short to be a effective PG on this team. Ross is up and down all the time. I still can't justify paying Fields 7 million a year. How is Acy a winner? Novak played one season on a playoff team, thats it. Augustine is garbage and was ineffective last year for the Pacers. And Aaron Gray is just Aaron Gray. And Rudy Guy can't shoot and turns over the ball every time he goes into the paint. Oh yeah, we have the worst coach in the NBA.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    I'm on this forum because I want to share my opinion with other real Raptors fans and because I like to see the point of view of other real Raptors fans. Delete this thread if you want but I just wanted to say that I'm really getting tired of always reading these same pessimist things, about tanking, about Casey sucks, DeMar sucks, Rudy sucks, AB sucked then in NY he's good (plus he's not, at all) etc.

    Let's put this all together: THIS TEAM IS NOT TANKING, I CAN TELL YOU THIS.

    Sincerely,

    from a real Raptors fan, who, just like any other true sport fan, would like his team to win.
    I am clearly on the 'pro-tank' side, but I cheer for the Raptors to win each and every game. From the moment of tip-off, my heart bests my head.

    I don't expect them to win many games, because I don't think the roster or head coach are very good. The team isn't very talented, the players don't really fit very well together, there's too much selfish play, and the team is well beyond the salary cap.

    I am not upset if they lose, because I believe every loss is additional evidence to help MU make a decision to rebuild/retool this team, which I believe is in the team's long-term best interest. TL has already overhauled the team's management behind the scenes, including bringing in the reigning executive of the year, so it's only natural that the next phase is overhauling the on-court product (players and head coach).

    I believe I am objective about this team, despite a deep passion that I have had for this team since day 1. I will never root against this team (Toronto Raptors), but I have no problem being critical about some of the players employed by this franchise. The logo on the front of the jersey is what matters, not the names on the back of them (I think you're blurring the line of distinction between the two).

    I want to see my beloved Raptors become a perennial playoff team, with legitimate aspirations for bringing an NBA championship north of the border in my lifetime. I do not believe that a core of overpaid, selfish, flawed players (ie: Gay, DeRozan & Lowry) will ever come close to this goal, so I have no problem watching MU cash-in his chips (trade assets) as part of calculated, methodical, comprehensive plan to rebuild this team's roster more efficiently and effectively, in order to bring about a new era of sustainable winning.

    Yes, I suppose I do support "tanking". However, please don't ever question my "fan-ness", simply because I share a different opinion of the current team and what the best strategy for improving it is.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote KazanTheMan wrote: View Post
    I love the team so much, that's why I want the best for them. A "real" fan should be able to realize this team is mediocre. I'm still going to cheer for them, but that doesn't make me blind to fact.
    Love that avatar.

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  5. #24
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am clearly on the 'pro-tank' side, but I cheer for the Raptors to win each and every game. From the moment of tip-off, my heart bests my head.

    I don't expect them to win many games, because I don't think the roster or head coach are very good. The team isn't very talented, the players don't really fit very well together, there's too much selfish play, and the team is well beyond the salary cap.

    I am not upset if they lose, because I believe every loss is additional evidence to help MU make a decision to rebuild/retool this team, which I believe is in the team's long-term best interest. TL has already overhauled the team's management behind the scenes, including bringing in the reigning executive of the year, so it's only natural that the next phase is overhauling the on-court product (players and head coach).

    I believe I am objective about this team, despite a deep passion that I have had for this team since day 1. I will never root against this team (Toronto Raptors), but I have no problem being critical about some of the players employed by this franchise. The logo on the front of the jersey is what matters, not the names on the back of them (I think you're blurring the line of distinction between the two).

    I want to see my beloved Raptors become a perennial playoff team, with legitimate aspirations for bringing an NBA championship north of the border in my lifetime. I do not believe that a core of overpaid, selfish, flawed players (ie: Gay, DeRozan & Lowry) will ever come close to this goal, so I have no problem watching MU cash-in his chips (trade assets) as part of calculated, methodical, comprehensive plan to rebuild this team's roster more efficiently and effectively, in order to bring about a new era of sustainable winning.

    Yes, I suppose I do support "tanking". However, please don't ever question my "fan-ness", simply because I share a different opinion of the current team and what the best strategy for improving it is.
    Very well said.

  6. #25
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    Quote johnnyg31 wrote: View Post
    You are definitely boosting this team to much. There are more negatives than positives about this team than you just mentioned. DeMar still can't shoot. Lowry is still selfish and too short to be a effective PG on this team. Ross is up and down all the time. I still can't justify paying Fields 7 million a year. How is Acy a winner? Novak played one season on a playoff team, thats it. Augustine is garbage and was ineffective last year for the Pacers. And Aaron Gray is just Aaron Gray. And Rudy Guy can't shoot and turns over the ball every time he goes into the paint. Oh yeah, we have the worst coach in the NBA.
    Sometimes I see things this way too but more realistically we have some decent pieces. These pieces do lack cohesion and direction

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yes, I suppose I do support "tanking". However, please don't ever question my "fan-ness", simply because I share a different opinion of the current team and what the best strategy for improving it is.
    Exactly.

    Also, I'm a basketball fan before a Raptors fan. There are multiple players on this team who do not play the game the way I like to see it played. I would want to see them gone regardless of whether that gave us a chance at Wiggins, or another blue-chipper.

    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    from a real Raptors fan, who, just like any other true sport fan, would like his team to win.
    What was your opinion on Bargnani? How did you feel about the fans who were booing him last year?

  8. #27
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    I'm on this forum because I want to share my opinion with other real Raptors fans and because I like to see the point of view of other real Raptors fans. Delete this thread if you want but I just wanted to say that I'm really getting tired of always reading these same pessimist things, about tanking, about Casey sucks, DeMar sucks, Rudy sucks, AB sucked then in NY he's good (plus he's not, at all) etc.

    Let's put this all together: THIS TEAM IS NOT TANKING, I CAN TELL YOU THIS.

    Sincerely,

    from a real Raptors fan, who, just like any other true sport fan, would like his team to win.
    Casey is a big problem. Being in the non-tanking group as you are I really think firing DC and hiring SVD could get us 6th
    seed this year. That said I think Casey most likely will not be fired and we will be in 8-10th range.

  9. #28
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    I have come across pessimistic points of view on the forum. I mean people who have a pessimistic under tone no matter what they say. However not everybody is being pessimistic when they condone tanking. Considering the rich talent in the upcoming draft, tanking IMO is the most realistic and sensible thing to do. If we don't, we'll see regretful posts a few years down the road about how a superstar of another team could have been ours if we had chosen to tank.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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  11. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Sorry about the whole ''real fan'' thing. I didn't use the good way to express my thoughts. And thanks y'all for your very good answers.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Sorry about the whole ''real fan'' thing. I didn't use the good way to express my thoughts. And thanks y'all for your very good answers.
    See that is what is usually great about this place. People disagree and have difference of opinions but it remains polite and civil.

    As others and myself have said, in the end everyone wants Toronto to win; the only question or debate is what is the best way to get there?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    without getting into namecalling as i'm wont to do on this subject....

    my big issue with tanking is the philosophy behind it.

    I don't personally want to believe a team I support would wantingly attempt to improve be devaluing themselves.

    improvement is a forward progression. tanking is regression.

    it'd be like always having rub one out minutes before throwing your girlfriend the d.. just to make the sex better instead of actually trying to improve long term... instead of consistently trying to improve your own performance, you're willing to take a personal shame hit just to reach your happy place even if you have to take a ride on the second round softie express to get there..

    to each their own... everybody is going to have their opinion on the topic, and i'm not about to get on my high horse about it as I have in the past..

    I personally can't fathom wanting a team I support to regress in order to improve. "addition by subtraction" is just a catch phrase... it's actually really fucking illogical.

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  17. #32
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    without getting into namecalling as i'm wont to do on this subject....

    my big issue with tanking is the philosophy behind it.

    I don't personally want to believe a team I support would wantingly attempt to improve be devaluing themselves.

    improvement is a forward progression. tanking is regression.

    it'd be like always having rub one out minutes before throwing your girlfriend the d.. just to make the sex better instead of actually trying to improve long term... instead of consistently trying to improve your own performance, you're willing to take a personal shame hit just to reach your happy place even if you have to take a ride on the second round softie express to get there..

    to each their own... everybody is going to have their opinion on the topic, and i'm not about to get on my high horse about it as I have in the past..

    I personally can't fathom wanting a team I support to regress in order to improve. "addition by subtraction" is just a catch phrase... it's actually really fucking illogical.
    As usual you shed new light on the subject - lol.

    As you said to each their own. Personally I can't fathom just hoping for a playoff team in 3-4 years. Teams today are rarely going to trade a pick without protections. Trades such as the Lakers landing Magic and Worthy or the Cavs landing Irving are rarer than finding a superstar in the daft.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    The Wiz had a bad start and most of their losses have been competitive with the exception of their drubbing by the Heat (see yesterday's one-point loss to the Thunder). The Cavs have had a terrible start because Bynum isn't the answer they hoped for at C and Bennett has had a god-awful start and hasn't helped their giant hole at SF, but the Cavs have so many draft picks to trade that they will be able to rectify their issues quickly: if we don't trade them Rudy, then Boston will trade them Jeff Green or Utah will trade them Gordon Hayward, because Cleveland is ready to start chasing playoffs and they have the means to do it. Detroit is problematic but less problematic than we are. Atlanta is playing like a .500 team right now.

    Bluntly: the Raps are playing very, very badly indeed. With the exception of the Utah game, every Raps game, win or loss, has featured ugly, inefficient, inelegant, ineffective basketball; our wins have only come about when we play truly awful teams. This isn't a recipe for playoffs as a rule, and if we manage to luck into it by other teams sucking even worse than we do, we'll get a first-round exit pretty much guaranteed - and a first-round exit isn't going to do shit for us in terms of developing a team, because nobody respects the eighth seed.
    Yes we've played bad basketball but we're 3-4. The thing is things cab only get better from here. With each game Jonas is getting more minutes and touches. The ball movement is getting better with each game too. The defense will get better as well. Teams and coaches improve through the season.
    @Chr1st1anL

  19. #34
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    improvement is a forward progression. tanking is regression.
    Hardly. I know addition-by-subtraction is counterintuitive, but take the case of Andrea Bargnani. Bargnani actively made this team worse: by virtue of his disinterested play, by virtue of his bloated, cap-space-hogging contract. That Masai got anything of value for Bargnani is the reason we've all given Masai so much trust to operate as he sees fit, because the general consensus on Bargs was that if we wanted to get rid of him our best case scenario was getting nothing in return.

    Turning to Rudy Gay: does he actively make the team worse? There is a reasonable argument that the answer to that is yes. Rudy's a good player in isolation, but he isn't really a player who makes his teammates better: he's a scorer who covers his own position, plain and simple. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if Rudy isn't making the team better you need players who do - and Rudy's ginormous contract makes getting those players much, much more difficult. Which means there is a reasonable argument that the totality of Rudy Gay is that he makes it harder for the Raptors to compete, and the Raps need to move him as soon as possible. Is Detroit's offer of $20M worth of expirings worth Rudy Gay? We all said no three months ago when Detroit offered it and Masai agreed; clearly Masai thinks Rudy is worth at least one positive asset rather than simply resorting to a scrapyard sale and getting nothing in return. This falls in line with Masai's general operating theory of "always come out ahead on a deal."

    But what is that positive asset going to be? Is it a future draft pick? A young player who needs burn to develop and who will be - at least initially - problematic on the floor? Because if that's what you're getting back for Rudy then in the short term the team will appear "worse" (because you're losing Rudy's scoring, generally decent defense, and clutch shooting) and you will talk about regression. But if that asset is better in the long term, then it's not regression at all. It's just recognizing that, if X is Rudy Gay and Y is the assets you can get for Rudy Gay, if Y < X this year but next year and thereafter Y > X, then you probably make that deal because it's a better return.

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  21. #35
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Yes we've played bad basketball but we're 3-4. The thing is things cab only get better from here. With each game Jonas is getting more minutes and touches. The ball movement is getting better with each game too. The defense will get better as well. Teams and coaches improve through the season.
    1. Our wins are not good wins. Who did we beat? Boston (lousy), Utah (the worst team in the league) and Milwaukee (problematic at best). Who did we lose to? Anybody even remotely competitive, which included the Charlotte Bobcats.

    2. Teams and coaches improve through the season as they learn to play with one another, but this applies to other teams too! Not just us!

    (yeesh, I predicted that people would start getting unrealistic expectations based on the Utah game, I just didn't think it would happen this fast)

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  23. #36
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Sometimes I see things this way too but more realistically we have some decent pieces. These pieces do lack cohesion and direction
    I agree with the cohesion part but even that, but even from the beginning of the season I just didn't see DeMar and Rudy combo ever really fitting with the lack of shooting and spacing. And plus, Lowry cannot run a offense, he seems like a shoot first kind of PG. Its the reason why by the deadline, I expect Ujiri to move Rudy to tank and build for the future.

  24. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Agree with the poster, and one of Ujiri's best quotes is, "You can't teach winning by losing." Whether you like him or not, you have to see the value in this attitude. The Raptors have tried (post-Bosh) winning by losing and you see what the end result is -- A middle of the pack team or worse. Other recent examples include the Kings, Bobcats, Clippers of the 80s, 90s, 2000s; Bulls post-MJ (until Rose they failed with Chandler, Curry, Brand, Hinrich other high lotto picks)

    I just keep looking at the Pacers and how they were built -- they continued to compete through the lean years (post-Reggie, JO etc), and then proceeded to draft, sign and trade their way to the team they have today. The Pacers are a similar market to Toronto but do not have a top-10 draft pick on their team. They haven't gone to the finals either, but appear to have the makings of a sustainable winning team.

    Basically, drafting well is the biggest key -- the best teams seem to always draft well, no matter where they pick. The best teams (the teams that have seemed to be able to sustain winning cultures) build a culture out of competing no matter what their payroll or skill level is. It might not be as easy or as quick as tanking, but it is still the prevailing system to build a sustainable winner. This type of management takes skill...something the Raptors have in their front office.

    A number one overall pick is great, but there is a lot of luck involved. Would you rather leave it up to luck or skill?
    Last edited by IROR; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 03:08 PM. Reason: fixed italics

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  26. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Hardly. I know addition-by-subtraction is counterintuitive, but take the case of Andrea Bargnani. Bargnani actively made this team worse: by virtue of his disinterested play, by virtue of his bloated, cap-space-hogging contract. That Masai got anything of value for Bargnani is the reason we've all given Masai so much trust to operate as he sees fit, because the general consensus on Bargs was that if we wanted to get rid of him our best case scenario was getting nothing in return.
    your post was too long, and I have the attention span of a gnat... so i'm just going to focus on this portion...

    If Bargnani did in fact make the team worse when he was here, I would argue that keeping him on the team was in fact a form of subtraction. His presence was inherently a deficit. The removal of a deficit isn't subtraction. The act of moving him, in itself, was addition.

    but that's a semantics thing... and will get quite silly if we keep the debate up.... if I haven't made it silly already

  27. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    Agree with the poster, and one of Ujiri's best quotes is, "You can't teach winning by losing." Whether you like him or not, you have to see the value in this attitude. The Raptors have tried (post-Bosh) winning by losing and you see what the end result is -- A middle of the pack team or worse. Other recent examples include the Kings, Bobcats, Clippers of the 80s, 90s, 2000s; Bulls post-MJ (until Rose they failed with Chandler, Curry, Brand, Hinrich other high lotto picks)

    I just keep looking at the Pacers and how they were built -- they continued to compete through the lean years (post-Reggie, JO etc), and then proceeded to draft, sign and trade their way to the team they have today. The Pacers are a similar market to Toronto but do not have a top-10 draft pick on their team. They haven't gone to the finals either, but appear to have the makings of a sustainable winning team.

    Basically, drafting well is the biggest key -- the best teams seem to always draft well, no matter where they pick. The best teams (the teams that have seemed to be able to sustain winning cultures) build a culture out of competing no matter what their payroll or skill level is. It might not be as [I]easy[I] or as quick as tanking, but it is still the prevailing system to build a sustainable winner. This type of management takes skill...something the Raptors have in their front office.

    A number one overall pick is great, but there is a lot of luck involved. Would you rather leave it up to luck or skill?
    There is luck no matter what you do. Ujiri has said this, as well.

    Regarding those teams, bad bad bad management except the Bulls who just made bad choices and had bad luck with Jay Williams.

    Kings, Bobcats, and Clippers are the worse of the worst when it came to drafting, trading, and free agency. If you think Ujiri is totally incompetent then this is a concern. But even the Clippers showed a little luck can right even a totally lost ship.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  28. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    But even the Clippers showed a little luck can right even a totally lost ship.
    Yes, but it took them decades to find that luck with Blake Griffin coming from the Cavs pick. Seems to me there are more losers than winners when it comes to a "tank-off." And even the winners of past tank-offs have not proven you can win it all.
    Last edited by IROR; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 03:18 PM.

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