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Thread: Stop that tankin sh*t mentality

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    without getting into namecalling as i'm wont to do on this subject....

    my big issue with tanking is the philosophy behind it.

    I don't personally want to believe a team I support would wantingly attempt to improve be devaluing themselves.

    improvement is a forward progression. tanking is regression.

    it'd be like always having rub one out minutes before throwing your girlfriend the d.. just to make the sex better instead of actually trying to improve long term... instead of consistently trying to improve your own performance, you're willing to take a personal shame hit just to reach your happy place even if you have to take a ride on the second round softie express to get there..

    to each their own... everybody is going to have their opinion on the topic, and i'm not about to get on my high horse about it as I have in the past..

    I personally can't fathom wanting a team I support to regress in order to improve. "addition by subtraction" is just a catch phrase... it's actually really fucking illogical.
    A couple of points if I may:

    1) Your analogy maybe somewhat misplaced and dare I say less complicated than dealing with the myriad qualities/personalities of a basketball team in the NBA with a cap and cba. You could proverbially slap the girlfriend around and she may cook you a consistent dinner every night and roll your eyeballs in bed but try getting your stars on the team to be eg. consistently efficient.

    2) Most of us looking for change believe the team requires shock therapy involving an infusion of new players thru trades, draft picks and f/as. Going this route may result in regression but more likely to result in a phoenix (got carried away) quicker than taking the approach of betting the current crew up against the luxury tax will turn into the team most wish it to be....a contender. Many believe it just isnt going to happen without drastic change.


    Cannot wait till MU lets us know either way the path chosen. This debate is getting tiresome.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    Yes, but it took them decades to find that luck with Blake Griffin coming from the Cavs pick. Seems to me there are more losers than winners when it comes to a "tank-off." And even the winners of past tank-offs have not proven you can win it all.
    No doubt.

    But you've totally ignored their inept and incompetent management/ownership.

    Are the Ujiri/Weltman/Webster front office team incompetent? I don't think so.
    Are Bell/Rogers cheap? After hiring TL and MU, I think the old OTPP ownership days are over.


    This team has everything in place to be a playoff team in 2 years and a championship team for a decade after that. Staying the course right now is not going to get the Raptors there.
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  3. #43
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    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    And even the winners of past tank-offs have not proven you can win it all.
    Practically nobody has proven you can win it all. Only eight teams in the league have won the championship since 1980: the Lakers (eight times, on Magic's teams and Kobe's teams), the Bulls (six times, all MJ/Pippen), the Spurs (four times under Duncan), the Celtics (three times with Bird, once with KG/Pierce), the Pistons (twice with Isiah, once with the 2004 no-star Pistons), the Rockets (twice under Hakeem), the Heat (once just with Wade, twice more with Wade/LeBron/Bosh), and the Mavericks (once with Nowitzki).

    The one constant: other than the 2004 Pistons and maybe the 2011 Mavericks, every team that has won the championship has had more than one superstar-level player. Current number of such players the Raptors have: zero.

    The only place we are likely to find them is through the draft: superstar trades happen very rarely and superstar free agent moves are also pretty rare, the last few years notwithstanding. I quite agree with you that good teams can find superstar players with lower draft picks if they have management who knows how to draft. Right now we have Masai (drafted Kenneth Faried at #22, Evan Fourniet at #20) and Jeff Weltman (drafted Luc Mbah a Moute at #37, Brandon Jennings at #10, Larry Sanders at #15, John Henson at #14 and Giannis Antetokounmpo at #16) who appear to have above average draft acumen. It therefore behooves the Raptors to make sure we have as many draft picks as possible.

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  5. #44
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Practically nobody has proven you can win it all. Only eight teams in the league have won the championship since 1980: the Lakers (eight times, on Magic's teams and Kobe's teams), the Bulls (six times, all MJ/Pippen), the Spurs (four times under Duncan), the Celtics (three times with Bird, once with KG/Pierce), the Pistons (twice with Isiah, once with the 2004 no-star Pistons), the Rockets (twice under Hakeem), the Heat (once just with Wade, twice more with Wade/LeBron/Bosh), and the Mavericks (once with Nowitzki).

    The one constant: other than the 2004 Pistons and maybe the 2011 Mavericks, every team that has won the championship has had more than one superstar-level player. Current number of such players the Raptors have: zero.

    The only place we are likely to find them is through the draft: superstar trades happen very rarely and superstar free agent moves are also pretty rare, the last few years notwithstanding. I quite agree with you that good teams can find superstar players with lower draft picks if they have management who knows how to draft. Right now we have Masai (drafted Kenneth Faried at #22, Evan Fourniet at #20) and Jeff Weltman (drafted Luc Mbah a Moute at #37, Brandon Jennings at #10, Larry Sanders at #15, John Henson at #14 and Giannis Antetokounmpo at #16) who appear to have above average draft acumen. It therefore behooves the Raptors to make sure we have as many draft picks as possible.
    To add on this:

    The ability to find starter or rotational players later in the draft is crucial to keep your contending team relevant over many years - look at the Spurs. However, rarely are you going to find superstar talent outside the lottery. The ability to find starters and rotational players outside the lottery is not going to make your team a contender - unless you package them in a trade for a star.

    So, I'm with you. For the Raptors to get in the championship discussion down the road they need to get some high draft picks in the next 3 drafts to maximize their opportunity.
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  6. #45
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    It's also worth noting that the reason the Spurs have been able to find so many stars and superstars outside of the lottery is because they were doing extensive international scouting years before anybody else did, and have consistently expanded their scouting range beyond where other teams were scouting. When the rest of the league started scouting Europe, the Spurs were already scouting South America. Right now the only team paying serious attention to African basketball other than the Spurs is, well, us (thanks, Masai).

    That's a big part of how the Spurs got Manu at 57, Tony Parker at 28, Luis Scola at 55, Beno Udrih at 28, Tiago Splitter at 28 and Goran Dragic at 45. They were looking where nobody else was looking.

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    To add on this:

    The ability to find starter or rotational players later in the draft is crucial to keep your contending team relevant over many years - look at the Spurs. However, rarely are you going to find superstar talent outside the lottery. The ability to find starters and rotational players outside the lottery is not going to make your team a contender - unless you package them in a trade for a star.

    So, I'm with you. For the Raptors to get in the championship discussion down the road they need to get some high draft picks in the next 3 drafts to maximize their opportunity.
    This brings us back to the "nature vs. nurture" debate. Using the Spurs as an example, we can't help but wonder if some of their late picks turned out great simply because of the discipline and winning culture they were exposed to early in their careers.

    For example, is it far-fetched to think that Dwight Buycks could look as good (if not better) as Norris Cole if he spent 3 years playing with LeBron, Wade and Bosh?

    Conversely, if Cole was backing up Lowry and getting up-and-down minutes, would he look like anything more than a fringe NBA player?
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  9. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post

    Let's put this all together: THIS TEAM IS NOT TANKING, I CAN TELL YOU THIS.


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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This brings us back to the "nature vs. nurture" debate. Using the Spurs as an example, we can't help but wonder if some of their late picks turned out great simply because of the discipline and winning culture they were exposed to early in their careers.

    For example, is it far-fetched to think that Dwight Buycks could look as good (if not better) as Norris Cole if he spent 3 years playing with LeBron, Wade and Bosh?

    Conversely, if Cole was backing up Lowry and getting up-and-down minutes, would he look like anything more than a fringe NBA player?
    Coaching plays into this too. San Antonio has Pop. The Bulls and later the Lakers had Phil Jackson. Miami has Erik Spoelstra, who's a very good coach in many ways. All of this should point out how bad Dwane Casey really is as a head coach.

  12. #49
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    tank, or not tank. Suck an NBA fan type discussion. In the NHL its just called blowing it up. In hte current landscape, there are very big hurdles, the CBA's for both the NHL and NBA make large trades, Blockbusters harder than they once were, Free agency, has allowed GMs and owners to handcuff themselves, and everyone else by awarding massive contracts to average players, because it iis simply THAT HARD to get a good guy to sign if you aren' tin a very desirable market.

    I am not a "bad fan" because I support a proper rebuild. I am an intelligent and very well educated basketball fan who happens to know how things work. You don't have to "throw games". You have to develop your exiting youth, and peddle your older players to teams who are ready to make the jump. Developing through the draft isn't gonna do it alone, OBVIOUSLY FF sakes. Its step one. You need a few young prospects, and the higher the caliber, the higher the odds you will hit paydirt.

    Its pretty painful reading through post after post of guys typing out 6 paragraphs of half truths, unsubstantiated "facts" and whatever else to somehow discredit the value of having the #1 pick. Its a really big deal. You wanna live in the 14th pick area, fine, but you will be in for years of tough sledding.

    If you are going to rebuild, you rebuild, and it hurts, but when done properly, you build a team that can play.

  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The ability to find starters and rotational players outside the lottery is not going to make your team a contender - unless you package them in a trade for a star.
    So many ways this topic can go, but yes you are right about finding rotation players Matt. Those role players play a key role in sustaining success but do not create it. I am anti-tank and agree with everyone about the star player factor.
    Having said that, I think the best way for the Raps to find those quality guys would be to liquidate assets like Gay into picks--just not in mid-season (tank).
    Back to my Pacers example, how they acquired Hibbert on draft night. Similarly, how they acquired George Hill (not the best example, considering the players involved. But it fit the Pacers stage of their retooling) -- this feels like the best way to get difference making players on the Raps (opposed to tanking). Getting quality players while not compromising a competitive attitude.

  14. #51
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Coaching plays into this too. San Antonio has Pop. The Bulls and later the Lakers had Phil Jackson. Miami has Erik Spoelstra, who's a very good coach in many ways. All of this should point out how bad Dwane Casey really is as a head coach.
    Yes, but Casey is the perfect coach for the pro-tank crowd.

  15. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    1. Our wins are not good wins. Who did we beat? Boston (lousy), Utah (the worst team in the league) and Milwaukee (problematic at best). Who did we lose to? Anybody even remotely competitive, which included the Charlotte Bobcats.

    2. Teams and coaches improve through the season as they learn to play with one another, but this applies to other teams too! Not just us!

    (yeesh, I predicted that people would start getting unrealistic expectations based on the Utah game, I just didn't think it would happen this fast)
    We've been competitive in every lose and that Celtic team just beat the Miami Heat two days ago. None of these teams have proven to be better than us
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  16. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Yes we've played bad basketball but we're 3-4. The thing is things cab only get better from here. With each game Jonas is getting more minutes and touches. The ball movement is getting better with each game too. The defense will get better as well. Teams and coaches improve through the season.
    the ball movement hasn't gotten any better over the stretch of 7 games so far. the only game where it deviated to a higher stat was vs utah. other than that, we're actually worse than utah in terms of average assists per game, a team that hasn't even won once yet.

  17. #54
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    So many ways this topic can go, but yes you are right about finding rotation players Matt. Those role players play a key role in sustaining success but do not create it. I am anti-tank and agree with everyone about the star player factor.
    Having said that, I think the best way for the Raps to find those quality guys would be to liquidate assets like Gay into picks--just not in mid-season (tank).

    Back to my Pacers example, how they acquired Hibbert on draft night. Similarly, how they acquired George Hill (not the best example, considering the players involved. But it fit the Pacers stage of their retooling) -- this feels like the best way to get difference making players on the Raps (opposed to tanking). Getting quality players while not compromising a competitive attitude.
    I see two problems with what you are saying:

    1) What if Gay/Lowry walks in the off season? Raps lose assets for nothing.

    2) Why risk assets leaving for nothing and picking 14ish if the eventual goal is to trade them in the year of a stacked draft?


    I'd rather be making moves to maximize success in future seasons rather than maximizing the current one. After all, this current season, minus Novak, Hansbrough, and a few fringe pieces is all Colangelo's work.... the core is 100% BC.
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  18. #55
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote IROR wrote: View Post
    Having said that, I think the best way for the Raps to find those quality guys would be to liquidate assets like Gay into picks--just not in mid-season (tank).
    You do it whenever the going is good. If that's July, and you slog through another year of mediocre basketball to get there, so be it. But if it's December, you do it then. There is no 'fiscal year' for trades that could make your team better. What if the return on Gay is worse next July than it is right now? Are you willing to take that risk, just so the team currently on the floor can have some 'consistency' and 'a chance to develop together'?

    I prefer a GM who strikes when the iron is hot, regardless of the short-term effect on a sub-par product.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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  20. #56
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Real fans can be in favour of tanking...infact, it makes more sense that way than those opposed, if you think about it.
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Yes, but Casey is the perfect coach for the pro-tank crowd.
    Not even close. Casey is just a bad coach; he's not particularly good at developing young players (if anything he tends to favour experienced players with play time). Casey is a terrible coach for rebuilding because he gives you no benefits other than losing a lot of games and improving your draft pick. Better to have another coach who will give rookies lots of burn and really spend the time working to better their game. You'll still lose a lot of games, but you'll come out ahead in the long run.

    Seriously, there is more to rebuilding than just getting a high draft pick, and we've been saying that all along.

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  23. #58
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    Default Tanking actually makes this team more watchable

    I find myself getting less depressed when things like Gay chucking up a contested 20 foot jumper happen. Why? That's just one step closer to Wiggins. This team is awful to watch if you're hoping for wins, but if you're rooting for ping-pong balls it's incredible. I mean we literally play basketball in all the wrong ways (right ways if you're trying to get a high pick): tons of mid-range shots, don't feed the post, don't move the ball, hold the wrong players (*cough* Val, *cough* Ross) accountable for bad plays, etc.

    It's artistry at its finest.

    Maybe Masai hasn't traded Gay/Lowry because he's worried that if he trades them for actually smart, young players, the team might win more...

  24. #59
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I see two problems with what you are saying:

    1) What if Gay/Lowry walks in the off season? Raps lose assets for nothing.

    2) Why risk assets leaving for nothing and picking 14ish if the eventual goal is to trade them in the year of a stacked draft?


    I'd rather be making moves to maximize success in future seasons rather than maximizing the current one. After all, this current season, minus Novak, Hansbrough, and a few fringe pieces is all Colangelo's work.... the core is 100% BC.
    I was using the (very) casual assumption that they are both resigned Might not be realistic... haha. Masai did resign and then trade Nene. And Gallo would probably be gone in Denver if he weren't a bandaid.

  25. #60
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Umm, given that I don't have a real image of a tank as my avatar, does a Raptor wearing' Wiggins count? I think we should change the thread to "Who's got the best Tank avatar".
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

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