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Thread: Masai is not playing wait and see

  1. #21
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    i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?

    sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

    i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?

    sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

    i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself
    Remember when Sacramento gave up on Thomas Robinson (their 5th overall pick) halfway through his rookie season?

    Or like others suggested earlier, did anyone see New York as a trade partner for Bargnani?

    I'm not saying that a Rudy to Charlotte deal will happen. I'm just saying we can't write it off as a ridiculous scenario.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i think ppl holding out hope that gay can return an MKG type asset must really believe MU is a miracle worker. what is charlotte's incentive to do that? they obviously think pretty highly of him, they spent the number two overall pick in a pretty great top-heavy draft on him when they had a need at every position except point guard. and now they're going to give up on him 7 games into his sophomore season? when he's playing well? all to make the 8 seed and limit their potential for "internal growth"? and what need do they have for gay if they're keeping MKG?
    This is exactly what I'm trying to say. For the people suggesting Charlotte would make that deal, if YOU were Charlotte, would you trade the former #2 overall pick for an albatross contract just to get 8th place? No. Hell acquiring Gay might actually make the team worse. Gilchrist has a 59% TS percentage this year. He also defends at an elite level.

    sorry, i just don't see any franchise being that stupid, not even charlotte.

    i think gay might be tradeable, i just think he's more likely to return "assets" like expirings and maybe a second round pick or extremely heavily protected first/late pick from a contender, as a best case scenario. and i absolutely think we should jump on that if the opportunity presents itself
    Yep this is best case scenario, scrubs and expirings for Gay.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    One thing to remember about last year is Memphis had a financial factor in their negotiations.

    They didn't want to take back any significant contract in return during not only last season but more importantly they didn't want any salary carrying in to this season so it really limited them in negotiation. For example, Washington could only make a deal with Okafor, Charlotte had Gordon.

    The Grizzlies eventually only took back Prince and Daye in the trade about $10M less last season and only Prince's $7-$7.5M moving forward for a starting SF replacement on a veteran team still trying to contend.

    I agree his value isn't very high but Memphis had different circumstances in their negotiations that I hope a large market with rich ownership is not going to encounter when at the trade table.
    The Grizzlies made a cost-slashing trade with the Cavaliers last January (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88...tiplayer-trade) that spared them from paying the luxury tax. After that, a lot of people expected the Rudy Gay trade rumors to die down as they no longer really "needed" to trade him for strictly financial reasons. They didn't however - if anything the rumors got louder.

    I'm connecting dots here but I think the shopping of Gay had more to do with Hollinger taking over in Memphis than anything else. One of the NBA's leading men when it comes to analytics and one of the least analytic friendly players in the league; it's a relationship that seemed doomed from the start.

    If the Grizzlies were strictly getting rid of Gay for financial reasons, why did they bother giving up a first rounder to Cleveland a few weeks earlier just to slash $6 million in salary? The Gay trade alone was enough to save them from the tax and keep their pick. Of course we heard they were shopping Gay because they couldn't afford him, but what did you expect them to say? We want to move him because he's way overpaid and doesn't help us very much?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    This is exactly what I'm trying to say. For the people suggesting Charlotte would make that deal, if YOU were Charlotte, would you trade the former #2 overall pick for an albatross contract just to get 8th place? No. Hell acquiring Gay might actually make the team worse. Gilchrist has a 59% TS percentage this year. He also defends at an elite level.

    Yep this is best case scenario, scrubs and expirings for Gay.
    Depends on the team's situation. Charlotte, with a history of being inept and with an owner desperate to win and an obvious weakness in what isn't a terrible line-up could be that team. Kemba Walker is a great floor spacer, Henderson would do all the defensive work that Gay wouldn't, then you have Al Jefferson scoring from the post and Biyombo as the rim protector. Add in Zeller, McRoberts off the bench for the front-court and Jeff Adrien, Jeff Taylor and Ramon Sessions and you have a lot of guys that will work hard defensively, but just lack fire-power. Gay could fill that perceived void and he is, despite current production, a better shooter/scorer than MKG.

    The Bobcats are also about to re-become the Hornets. They need to change their image as a lottery team and making the play-offs, even as 1st round fodder, is the best way to do that. They have enough young guys that will grow organically, they just don't have enough right now guys, so they can take a chance on an established guy, like Al Jefferson and Gay because their ceiling wont be reached until Kemba Walker reaches his (which is still a few years away imo). Plus the financial incentive of playoff revenue would mean significantly more for Jordan the owner than MLSE in Toronto.

    Too many good incentives for Charlotte to ignore the deal.

    As for comparing Toronto trading Gay to Memphis trading Gay, it isn't that simple. Contract options this year are different, as it the willingness to take on contracts. Memphis was making the move purely for financial reasons. Toronto is making the move for basketball reasons first, with financial being a secondary benefit.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    The Grizzlies made a cost-slashing trade with the Cavaliers last January (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88...tiplayer-trade) that spared them from paying the luxury tax. After that, a lot of people expected the Rudy Gay trade rumors to die down as they no longer really "needed" to trade him for strictly financial reasons. They didn't however - if anything the rumors got louder.

    I'm connecting dots here but I think the shopping of Gay had more to do with Hollinger taking over in Memphis than anything else. One of the NBA's leading men when it comes to analytics and one of the least analytic friendly players in the league; it's a relationship that seemed doomed from the start.

    If the Grizzlies were strictly getting rid of Gay for financial reasons, why did they bother giving up a first rounder to Cleveland a few weeks earlier just to slash $6 million in salary? The Gay trade alone was enough to save them from the tax and keep their pick. Of course we heard they were shopping Gay because they couldn't afford him, but what did you expect them to say? We want to move him because he's way overpaid and doesn't help us very much?
    No doubt Hollinger had impact on trading gay. They are chalk and cheese.

    I do remember that trade as well. However, that trade only alleviated last season. If they had not followed up with the Gay trade they would have been a luxury tax team this year without Tony Allen resigned and no depth.

    All your points in the last paragraph are good ones. We are all speculating. You very well could be right.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #27
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Depends on the team's situation. Charlotte, with a history of being inept and with an owner desperate to win and an obvious weakness in what isn't a terrible line-up could be that team. Kemba Walker is a great floor spacer, Henderson would do all the defensive work that Gay wouldn't, then you have Al Jefferson scoring from the post and Biyombo as the rim protector. Add in Zeller, McRoberts off the bench for the front-court and Jeff Adrien, Jeff Taylor and Ramon Sessions and you have a lot of guys that will work hard defensively, but just lack fire-power. Gay could fill that perceived void and he is, despite current production, a better shooter/scorer than MKG.

    The Bobcats are also about to re-become the Hornets. They need to change their image as a lottery team and making the play-offs, even as 1st round fodder, is the best way to do that. They have enough young guys that will grow organically, they just don't have enough right now guys, so they can take a chance on an established guy, like Al Jefferson and Gay because their ceiling wont be reached until Kemba Walker reaches his (which is still a few years away imo). Plus the financial incentive of playoff revenue would mean significantly more for Jordan the owner than MLSE in Toronto.

    Too many good incentives for Charlotte to ignore the deal.

    As for comparing Toronto trading Gay to Memphis trading Gay, it isn't that simple. Contract options this year are different, as it the willingness to take on contracts. Memphis was making the move purely for financial reasons. Toronto is making the move for basketball reasons first, with financial being a secondary benefit.
    It's nice to think these things because they benefit us, but how about you look at it from this perspective.

    The Raptors are rebranding soon and have new management coming in. They need to make a trade for a solid but extremely overpaid player in order to make a playoff push.

    See how similar that reasoning is? And I'm sure nobody here has any interest in us going out and trading for yet another overpaid player.

    Just because Charlotte wants to make the playoffs, doesn't mean they're going to mortgage their whole future to do so. Tbh, Rich Cho is actually a good GM, they just haven't been getting particularly lucky in lotteries.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    It's nice to think these things because they benefit us, but how about you look at it from this perspective.

    The Raptors are rebranding soon and have new management coming in. They need to make a trade for a solid but extremely overpaid player in order to make a playoff push.

    See how similar that reasoning is? And I'm sure nobody here has any interest in us going out and trading for yet another overpaid player.

    Just because Charlotte wants to make the playoffs, doesn't mean they're going to mortgage their whole future to do so. Tbh, Rich Cho is actually a good GM, they just haven't been getting particularly lucky in lotteries.
    The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

    Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

    You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

    It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

    Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

    You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

    It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).
    I would also add with the difference between Charlotte and Toronto is the Bobcats have been tanking for 3 years, they've already had high draft picks, and been screwed by the lotto balls all around (they have lost position after every lottery). Toronto has, incredibly, been trying to improve and actually be good.... obviously an epic fail.
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  10. #30
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The difference is that Charlotte demonstrated that exact approach by signing Jefferson to an absurd contract. They took BC's accelerated rebuilding strategy to the extreme with that move, for the exact reasons that are being claimed.

    Conversely, TL came in and fired BC because he built Toronto into a capped-out Frankenteam and hired MU to clean up the mess. The Raptors roster will be blown-up at some point, either to rebuild or retool, because trading is the only option available to MU (cap situation precludes Toronto from being a player in free agency). Of course the draft is in play, regardless which direction MU takes the team.

    You also seem to be hung-up on Charlotte including MKG in a deal, when such a deal could be done without Charlotte giving up a key/young member of their core (ie: Gordon & filler & draft picks, be it 2014 of future pick(s)). Plus, as has been done in previous deals, Charlotte could make the trade dependent on Gay giving them a verbal confirmation to either opt-in or opt-out, depending on what their desired choice is.

    It's not as simple as blowing smoke to make a desired point; the situations are completely different, based on actions taken by each team during the offseason (and stated by their ownership/management groups).
    That's an exaggeration, Jefferson isn't signed to an "absurd" deal. He's a center for starters, so he's going to get paid a premium. 13.5M a year for a 20-10 center entering his prime is far from absurd. Considering that Gay makes 6M more than that per season and is nowhere near as useful, why would Charlotte want him?

    I'm not hung up on MKG, although it keeps being suggested by others here. I'm not sure why Charlotte would even trade Ben Gordon STRAIGHT UP for Rudy Gay's contract, let alone actually including picks and lesser prospects.

    I'm not blowing smoke. Moving Rudy Gay would essentially require us to trade with a Bryan Colangelo clone, because he has the lowest production-to-contract value in the entire league.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    It's nice to think these things because they benefit us, but how about you look at it from this perspective.

    The Raptors are rebranding soon and have new management coming in. They need to make a trade for a solid but extremely overpaid player in order to make a playoff push.

    See how similar that reasoning is? And I'm sure nobody here has any interest in us going out and trading for yet another overpaid player.

    Just because Charlotte wants to make the playoffs, doesn't mean they're going to mortgage their whole future to do so. Tbh, Rich Cho is actually a good GM, they just haven't been getting particularly lucky in lotteries.
    I don't think the comparison fits.

    Toronto, capped out with a terrible roster devoid of potential except for 2 players (JV and Ross), going to tweak the logo/colours so when they host the 2016 all-star game people are impressed, with a multinational media conglomerate as the owners.

    Charlotte, lots of young players (Walker, Henderson, MKG, Zeller), potentially 3 lottery picks this year (Portland Trail Blazers 1-12 protected and Detroit Pistons 1-8 protected) and are only committed to $41M next year (not including cap holds). Charlotte's ownership group is much weaker (financially) and are in a smaller market and their owner has the biggest ego, likely, in NBA history and is beyond description in competitiveness.

    The devil is in the details, bad team A does not equal bad team B.

  12. #32
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    That's an exaggeration, Jefferson isn't signed to an "absurd" deal. He's a center for starters, so he's going to get paid a premium. 13.5M a year for a 20-10 center entering his prime is far from absurd. Considering that Gay makes 6M more than that per season and is nowhere near as useful, why would Charlotte want him?

    I'm not hung up on MKG, although it keeps being suggested by others here. I'm not sure why Charlotte would even trade Ben Gordon STRAIGHT UP for Rudy Gay's contract, let alone actually including picks and lesser prospects.

    I'm not blowing smoke. Moving Rudy Gay would essentially require us to trade with a Bryan Colangelo clone, because he has the lowest production-to-contract value in the entire league.
    I meant absurd for such a young, rebuilding team. Every 'expert' was panning the signing as one of desperation by Charlotte, in order to try and compete for the playoffs and win back their fans ahead of their rebranding. For a team that has been in rebuild mode for several years (Cho being the guy who said something about being willing to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward, upon being hired by Charlotte), it was completely stupid for them to decide to change their strategy ahead of such a strong draft. Had they stayed the course, they likely would be in a position to add a potential superstar to their already strong, young lineup.

    For a team lacking a scorer, being able to acquire Gay as a half-season rental (assuming he verbally agrees to opt-out) for Ben Gordon's expiring contract and one of multiple 1st round picks, would be a great deal for a team gunning for the playoffs. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

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  14. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
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    Or maybe we can use history to tell us that teams don't typically do trades until after Dec 15th (I believe). It takes at least 2 partners in this trade dance. It could be everybody in the League is waiting until ALL their trade chips are available and enough time has past to justify making a move....just a thought.

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  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    One thing I'm sure of is there is no such thing as an untradeable contract. Gay and Derozan are very movable. Take a look at the contracts everybody said couldn't be traded: Marcus Banks was traded a couple of times, Theo Ratliff was traded 3 times during the worst years of his deal, Jermaine O'neal was traded twice -- once at $21 million and another time at $23 million, Bargnani so far once, even Agent Zero, perhaps the worst contract in league history was eventually traded.

    It's the good contracts that teams can't trade, because they want too much in return. A good player on a good contract won't be traded, to be sure. So Gay and Derozan are not only tradeable, according to league history as unproductive players on bad contracts, they are in fact likely to move.
    What about guys like Mark Madsen and Charlie Villanueva? They were/are unmoveable.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    One thing I'm sure of is there is no such thing as an untradeable contract. Gay and Derozan are very movable. Take a look at the contracts everybody said couldn't be traded: Marcus Banks was traded a couple of times, Theo Ratliff was traded 3 times during the worst years of his deal, Jermaine O'neal was traded twice -- once at $21 million and another time at $23 million, Bargnani so far once, even Agent Zero, perhaps the worst contract in league history was eventually traded.

    It's the good contracts that teams can't trade, because they want too much in return. A good player on a good contract won't be traded, to be sure. So Gay and Derozan are not only tradeable, according to league history as unproductive players on bad contracts, they are in fact likely to move.
    A contract may not necessarily be untradeable for the entirety of its length, but I think there are contracts that are untradeable at certain times. We've seen numerous contracts amnestied, or players on teams getting paid alot, despite not playing at all. If no contract was untradeable, that kind of stuff should never happen.

    The value of their contract may change when the circumstances of their contract change (eg. they become an expiring) but I don't think its fair to assume all contracts are moveable at all times. With that length of time possibly being an extended period depending on the length of the contract.
    Last edited by Craiger; Wed Nov 13th, 2013 at 05:36 PM.

  18. #36
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    Trades won't start happening until December 15th when the moratorium on trading players signed in the offseason is lifted. A lot of the potential deals for Gay would likely involve players on short contracts that were just signed (Bynum, Clark, etc...). Plus I don't think the teams panicking are panicking hard enough yet for Masai to really bend them over a barrel. We aren't winning so there isn't any rush to get into tank mode, we're doing a fine job of it with the current roster / coach.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Gay for Gordon and MKG makes so much sense for Charlotte. They get to add a perceived "star" player, plus if they keep their pick, then they can replace MKG fairly easily through the draft. If Gay opts-out, they try to resign him or they play their 2014 rookie instead. If Gay opts-in, they continue to compete and have an expiring to deal.
    any deal without bigV that gets us MKG is a win for us. Love love love MKG.
    For The Win

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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    any deal without bigV that gets us MKG is a win for us. Love love love MKG.
    I seriously doubt he's ever going to be effective on offense, his shot is so fugly. When he shoots FT's it reminds me of Chuck Hayes, yea its that bad.

  21. #39
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    Kennedy just tweeted that Sac and Cle have been working the phone lines to make a move after their slow starts

  22. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Kennedy just tweeted that Sac and Cle have been working the phone lines to make a move after their slow starts

    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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