Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: Back to the TANK: Free Agency VS Draft

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Back to the TANK: Free Agency VS Draft

    Not sure if this has been discussed before but, all ive been reading in our forums lately is tanking to get a top 3 draft position. Has tanking for a big name FA ever been brought up?

    One of the teams that comes to mind is obviously the knicks who tried to tank to get not just one but two max players in the FA pool.

    Will this work for the Raptors? (please, no more "No big name FA is coming to Toronto because of the weather and tax" BS). I think players are now aware of the organization's drive to bring the team back into respectability so these two factors really shouldnt apply anymore)

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    getting free agents to come here is a pipe dream. I'm okay with that.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think it is possible, the Suns didn't extend Bledsoe. If we clear a ton of cap space, we could be in line to steal him away, however it would need to be an overpay so PHX doesn't match due to him being an RFA

    A lineup going into next season of

    Bledsoe
    Ross
    Wiggins (or high draft pick)
    Amir
    Val

    Very enticing. Outside of Bledsoe though, there aren't any that I see realistically coming to TO.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,129
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The problem with creating capspace for free agents is that it is far, far more zero-sum than drafting is as a rebuild strategy.

    The Knicks are an excellent example. They worked to create capspace in 2010 to get LeBron. They didn't get LeBron. (Because there's only one LeBron.) Instead, they ended up overpaying Amar'e Stoudemire and that hasn't worked out so well, to say the least. Or the Lakers, who gambled everything on Dwight re-signing in LA and then that didn't happen. Etc.

    With the draft, you get an asset. You might not get THE asset, but you get a young player who can (usually) be trained, molded, improved, etc. You have a lot more control in how that happens than you do in signing free agents. And it's cheaper.

  5. Like Nilanka, FoxMachine liked this post
  6. #5
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    847
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    the only good example of building through free agency in recent years would be the boston celtics. And I would use it as a counter example, because they were only able to squeeze out one championship before they were too old to do anything, and now they're tanking lol.

  7. #6
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,502
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Not sure if this has been discussed before but, all ive been reading in our forums lately is tanking to get a top 3 draft position. Has tanking for a big name FA ever been brought up?

    One of the teams that comes to mind is obviously the knicks who tried to tank to get not just one but two max players in the FA pool.

    Will this work for the Raptors? (please, no more "No big name FA is coming to Toronto because of the weather and tax" BS). I think players are now aware of the organization's drive to bring the team back into respectability so these two factors really shouldnt apply anymore)
    If MU trades away the Raps' top players (Gay, DeRozan & Lowry, among others) for draft picks and expiring contracts, combined with all the expiring contracts already on the roster, wouldn't that achieve both? The Raps would increase their own lottery odds, ideally acquire additional 1st round picks, and free significant cap space to pursue free agents. That's what many pro-tank posters have been saying for quite awhile, that "tanking" isn't simply getting as many Ping-Pong balls for the Raptors own pick at all!

  8. Like Nilanka liked this post
  9. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Not sure if this has been discussed before but, all ive been reading in our forums lately is tanking to get a top 3 draft position. Has tanking for a big name FA ever been brought up?

    One of the teams that comes to mind is obviously the knicks who tried to tank to get not just one but two max players in the FA pool.

    Will this work for the Raptors? (please, no more "No big name FA is coming to Toronto because of the weather and tax" BS). I think players are now aware of the organization's drive to bring the team back into respectability so these two factors really shouldnt apply anymore)
    You want us to explain or give our opinion on why it would work or not, while not including the very reasons why its very unlikely to work?

    Sure, if weather, taxes etc. aren't considered then Toronto has just as good a chance as anyone to sign anyone. Meanwhile, Bargnani is a superstar rebounder if we don't factor in everyone else's rebounds.

  10. #8
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If MU trades away the Raps' top players (Gay, DeRozan & Lowry, among others) for draft picks and expiring contracts, combined with all the expiring contracts already on the roster, wouldn't that achieve both? The Raps would increase their own lottery odds, ideally acquire additional 1st round picks, and free significant cap space to pursue free agents. That's what many pro-tank posters have been saying for quite awhile, that "tanking" isn't simply getting as many Ping-Pong balls for the Raptors own pick at all!
    I thought of that too. But since this is a deep draft, other teams will want to keep their picks. So for them to take Gay, Lowry or Demar when everybody knows that the Raps are planning to tank, the Raps might have to include their picks to sweeten the deal. If Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Utah, Denver, Sac, Lakers and Phoenix go on full tank mode, i think the Raps draft chances will be far less than these teams considering JV, Ross, Fields, Amir, Buycks, Hansborough might result in a few wins here and there.

  11. #9
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    You want us to explain or give our opinion on why it would work or not, while not including the very reasons why its very unlikely to work?

    Sure, if weather, taxes etc. aren't considered then Toronto has just as good a chance as anyone to sign anyone. Meanwhile, Bargnani is a superstar rebounder if we don't factor in everyone else's rebounds.
    Surely you can come up with more reasons than just these two, right?
    You seem like a highly educated one, if minus the sarcasm.

    If im already convinced that these two reasons are the end all be all of the Raps not being able to sign FAs then why would i even start the thread, right?

    What im asking is are there OTHER reasons besides these two that everyone keeps pushing around which will hinder the Raptors from tanking to sign FAs.

  12. #10
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,593
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    the only good example of building through free agency in recent years would be the boston celtics. And I would use it as a counter example, because they were only able to squeeze out one championship before they were too old to do anything, and now they're tanking lol.
    How is Boston a good example? They didn't acquire ANY key players through free agency.....

    Miami is the only good example in recent years. And it's widely agreed now that they essentially conspired to make that plan well before free agency.

    Free agency is a crapshoot. It is so difficult to get fair value. Often teams end up spending too much money for less than ideal fits. It's a good way to fill out your team around your core, but pretty bad for trying to get a core piece(s).

  13. Like Bendit liked this post
  14. #11
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,502
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Surely you can come up with more reasons than just these two, right?
    You seem like a highly educated one, if minus the sarcasm.

    If im already convinced that these two reasons are the end all be all of the Raps not being able to sign FAs then why would i even start the thread, right?

    What im asking is are there OTHER reasons besides these two that everyone keeps pushing around which will hinder the Raptors from tanking to sign FAs.
    I think there's a consensus that if building through the draft is considered risky for the Raptors, then building through free agency would be the equivalent of the Raptors playing Russian Roulette with only one empty chamber.

  15. Like Axel, Craiger liked this post
  16. #12
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Surely you can come up with more reasons than just these two, right?
    You seem like a highly educated one, if minus the sarcasm.

    If im already convinced that these two reasons are the end all be all of the Raps not being able to sign FAs then why would i even start the thread, right?

    What im asking is are there OTHER reasons besides these two that everyone keeps pushing around which will hinder the Raptors from tanking to sign FAs.
    Well I'd point out that is a much different question than the one you asked initially

    Will this work for the Raptors?
    Those would be 2 of the prime reasons. Others could include, but not exclusive to, little chance at winning with the current state of the franchise. Indifference towards the idea of living outside of America. Endorsement benifits in the massive US markets, which while not as drastic as in the past, still exist.

    I've posted numerous times showing the one sided movement of any 'star' player, not drafted by their team, ending up in the 6 'prime' NBA markets (NY, LA, Miami, Houston, Dallas). Even if we don't want to believe the reasons why its happening, its worth noting that it is happening regardless.

    The Raptors are starting at a disadvantage vs the premier markets, and then still need to compete against everyone else aswell.

    if building through the draft is considered risky for the Raptors, then building through free agency would be the equivalent of the Raptors playing Russian Roulette with only one empty chamber.
    this pretty much sums it up.

  17. #13
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    In the history of the Raptors very few free agent signings have paid dividends. Parker and Garbo come to mind as being very positive FA additions. I'm overlooking someone, I'm sure. There have been more than a few busts of the "sign and retire" variety.

  18. #14
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,731
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    ...There have been more than a few busts of the "sign and retire" variety.
    Yay, a list, a list, let's start a list.
    1. Alonzo Mourning
    2. Hakeem Olajuwon
    3. Jermaine O'Neal
    4. Hedo Turkoglu

    Actually, O'Neal and Mourning were the results of trades, right?

  19. #15
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,227
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think tanking for free agency alone will bring a free agent of any significant quality here.

    Free agency is about the chance to win and money.... not necessarily in that order.

    Also, a star free agent typically joins up with another star.

    Keep in mind as well that an UFA is typically going to be anywhere from 27-29 years of age (4 year rookie deal, 4-5 year post rookie contract). For a 27-29 year old to join your team, you have to be on the cusp of winning.


    So for the Raptors to become a destination in free agency, they need to:

    1) dump dead weight contracts
    2) obtain prospects with potential and picks,
    3) obtain another star (or two!) via draft or trade,
    4) have lots of cap space available


    To be honest this is the route many people who are looking for #BlowItUpAlreadyMasai to do.

    1) dump Gay and DeRozan,
    2) draft draft draft
    3) draft that star or trade some assets,
    4) hit free agency in 2015 or 2016 with an opportunity to sell a chance to win right away and a boat load of cash towed behind them.


    Getting things to work out that way is the tricky part but it really is that simple.

    A team like the Lakers MIGHT be able to pull off what you are suggesting but I don't think any other team realistically can.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  20. #16
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Add Jason Kapono to the "sign and retire" list. Jarrett Jack was a decent signing.

  21. #17
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    TheGlove, I think the weather, taxes, and other BS are definitely reasons why ignorant American players would choose elsewhere if given the chance.

    I mean, even the experienced, apparently educated players (like Bosh), said this place just felt different.

    Of course you and I know it's all BS, but the point is that it's real to most players in the league, so we can't discount it.

    EDIT: Just another reason why Wiggins is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the Raptors. How could we live with ourselves if we didn't give the draft a chance next year? All it would cost us is a .500 season (at best).
    Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Nov 14th, 2013 at 02:10 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  22. Like Axel liked this post
  23. #18
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I mean, even the experienced, apparently educated players (like Bosh), said this place just felt different.

    Ya, losing does feel different. Really that is the only reason why players don't come to TO...I wouldn't want to go to a city where they are always bad, when I can take the same amount to go play somewhere where the team wins. It's not just TO that has trouble attracting FA's, Charlotte, Milwaukee, ATL, Sac, PHX. Nobody went to OKC till Durant and Westbrook got drafted, nobody went to Cleveland until LeBron got there

  24. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Any significant splash in free agency will ultimately mean that we won't have Lowry/Gay on our roster next year, strictly from a financial point of view.

    And if that's the case, why not just trade them this season and get whatever you can back in tangible assets?

    Broken record time: We don't have to settle for either or. A good rebuild strategy will result in a top pick this summer AND cap room to work with.

  25. Like mcHAPPY, CalgaryRapsFan liked this post
  26. #20
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,760
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think tanking for free agency alone will bring a free agent of any significant quality here.

    Free agency is about the chance to win and money.... not necessarily in that order.

    Also, a star free agent typically joins up with another star.

    Keep in mind as well that an UFA is typically going to be anywhere from 27-29 years of age (4 year rookie deal, 4-5 year post rookie contract). For a 27-29 year old to join your team, you have to be on the cusp of winning.


    So for the Raptors to become a destination in free agency, they need to:

    1) dump dead weight contracts
    2) obtain prospects with potential and picks,
    3) obtain another star (or two!) via draft or trade,
    4) have lots of cap space available


    To be honest this is the route many people who are looking for #BlowItUpAlreadyMasai to do.

    1) dump Gay and DeRozan,
    2) draft draft draft
    3) draft that star or trade some assets,
    4) hit free agency in 2015 or 2016 with an opportunity to sell a chance to win right away and a boat load of cash towed behind them.



    Getting things to work out that way is the tricky part but it really is that simple.

    A team like the Lakers MIGHT be able to pull off what you are suggesting but I don't think any other team realistically can.

    I feel like this season is one freakin' sinister caramilk secret. The only answers are the ones that make a bit of sense...pass the eye test. I agree that the above is a plan approved by many. But how do you get from step one to step two? Who is trading for 4 years of Demar, three months of Lowry or three months of Gay (or even worse, another year of Gay at $20 million). And if they are, they are not giving back a top ten pick in this years draft. Not one without protection. We only have our pick, however good it may be. I would love to be proven wrong. I guess the Pelicans trade happened so there is hope. But the more the college season goes on...the hope dims. So point one does not lead to point two. Which means it can not lead to point three. Which means we have JV, TRoss and, "good case" scenario, one or two mid level draft picks. And if we do that, likely a great pick in 2015. Anybody in that draft who's name rhymes with "tankin'" so we can work on the slogan now? I'm not against tanking. I just want to see how it can be done.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •