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Thread: Masai is not playing wait and see

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    Default Masai is not playing wait and see

    He just can't trade Gay. Think about it logically, if you were one of the other 29 teams in the league, why the hell would you trade for Rudy Gay with one of the best drafts ever coming up (if you're a bad team), and better 3s available in free agency (if you're a big market)?

    Atlanta - Currently have no way of matching Gay's deal w/o trading more than 1 key player. Korver's 3 point shooting at the 3 is better for their team anyway, they'd rather Millsap and Horford be taking efficient shots than Gay chucking.

    Boston - They are tanking, no need to add Gay to the roster.

    Brooklyn - No room for Gay, have two starting caliber 3s already anyway.

    Charlotte - They COULD decide to contend, and have the contracts to match Gay's deal, but I'm sure they see the value in this draft just like every other team in the league does. Strapping themselves with Gay when they already have a young MKG, and losing their cap flexibility would be silly.

    Chicago - Have Deng already

    Cleveland - Could use a scorer like Gay, but not for that price tag, also trying to save money for LBJ potentially in 2014 FA

    Dallas - No use for a player like Gay right now, Marion is giving them better defense, more rebounding and higher efficiency at the 3. Maybe down the road they may want him to supplement Dirk/Monta, but for now at 19M? No.

    Denver - Have Gallinari and Chandler on the books for a lot of money right now, no.

    Detroit - One of the few teams that COULD actually want Gay down the road, but again if they're not even willing to extend Monroe, why would they want to pay 19M for a highly inefficient SF. Just because we saw rumors that they made an offer for him doesn't mean they're actually true or they really want him.

    Golden State - Iggy > Gay

    Houston - Parsons > Gay and costs like 4% as much.

    Indiana - George >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gay

    Los Angeles Clippers - Couldn't match his salary if they wanted to, and Dudley/Redick/Barnes are better on the wings because they can play off-ball and aren't ball stoppers.

    Los Angeles Lakers - Lining themselves up for 2014 FA, plus the only way they could trade for Gay would be to send us Pau, which doesn't even help the tank.

    Memphis - LOL

    Miami - LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gay

    Milwaukee - Could want Gay, and have the expirings to deal for him, but doesn't it make a lot more sense for them to just tank for a star wing? Why trade for an overpaid chucker?

    Minnesota - Can't really match salary without sending a lot of pieces our way, and I'm not sure they're ready to have 3 huge contracts on the roster with Rubio's extension coming up in a year or so. Kevin Martin is giving them higher volume and vastly more efficient scoring than Gay anyway for 1/3 the price.

    New Orleans - Would have to send Tyreke or EG our way... no thanks on those deals.

    New York - Have no way of acquiring him really unless we want STAT. Melo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gay

    OKC - Durant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gay

    Orlando - Clearly tanking using cheap, young prospects. Why the hell would they trade for Gay?

    Philadelphia - See Orlando explanation

    Phoenix - See Orlando explanation

    Portland - Batum fits their team way better, is younger and cheaper.

    Sacramento - Clearly tanking.

    San Antonio - Would never be stupid enough to trade for Gay

    Utah - See Orlando explanation

    Washington - Might be our best/only bet since they seem to be trying to win now, don't really have any picks to send us though. Plus if you were them, wouldn't it make more sense to maintain flexibility and try to get someone cheaper/younger in free agency? Especially with a guy like Hayward potentially available.

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    Ditto for Lowry, most teams already have a PG that's superior to him, and the ones that don't (except for maybe the Lakers) are tanking.

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    People like to pretend that just because we heard a rumor that Detroit might want him, Masai is just wasting his time. But I'm sure Detroit (if they ever wanted Gay) threw that idea out the window once they got J-Smoove for like 5M less per year.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    He just can't trade Gay. Think about it logically, if you were one of the other 29 teams in the league, why the hell would you trade for Rudy Gay with one of the best drafts ever coming up (if you're a bad team), and better 3s available in free agency (if you're a big market)?

    .
    Some teams have been losing for a long time and are happy to see the playoffs (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit).

    Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis were traded with worse contracts that Gay's. Just throwing that out there.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Some teams have been losing for a long time and are happy to see the playoffs (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit).

    Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis were traded with worse contracts that Gay's. Just throwing that out there.
    Those bad contracts were traded FOR each other man. Big difference between that and trying to move Gay for flexibility

    And just because those teams would be happy to see the playoffs doesn't mean they'd compromise everything they've been working towards by acquiring Gay's albatross deal. We always love to speculate about trades that help us without considering the fact that if we were the other team, we would never deal Gordon+MKG for Gay's contract, or handicap our team financially by sending our only expirings away for Gay (when we know we still need to extend our star C and star PF), or throw away a chance at LeBron potentially returning for a marginal improvement on the wings (CJ Miles has actually been better than Gay this year in limited PT).
    Last edited by Masai Ujiri; Wed Nov 13th, 2013 at 05:59 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Some teams have been losing for a long time and are happy to see the playoffs (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit).
    But who's to say those teams will make the playoffs once they acquire Rudy? We arguably have better complementary pieces than Charlotte and Cleveland, and playoffs are looking like a longshot for us.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    I think you can absolutely move Gay, but getting a 2014 pick might not be a part of it.

    Gay for Gordon and MKG makes so much sense for Charlotte. They get to add a perceived "star" player, plus if they keep their pick, then they can replace MKG fairly easily through the draft. If Gay opts-out, they try to resign him or they play their 2014 rookie instead. If Gay opts-in, they continue to compete and have an expiring to deal.

    Does Toronto benefit from getting Gordon and MKG (no 2014 pick)? I say yes. Gordon is obviously just for financial reasons, but MKG is still a top prospect who plays D, plays off-ball and in transition. If we can get a future pick, 2015/2016 then great, but to be honest, if we can get MKG and an expiring for Gay, then I'd be happy. Increase the value of our own 2014 pick at the same time, draft a stud PG or SG (depending on where our picks lands) and go from there.

    Lowry is harder to move because of the depth of the PG position imo. Until an injury or slump occurs, I don't think there is a great market for him. Brooklyn could use a legit back-up PG, but I can't remember if they can salary match or not.

    I also think that Cleveland will make a move if they believe that the player (Gay in this case) puts them into contention regardless of LBJ. Gilbert does not want to get burned by LBJ twice, and his ego requires winning. If Gay can raise his value enough for Cleveland to think he could fit beside Irving, Waiters, then I think Cleveland makes the decision based on Gay's merits, not LBJ.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Those bad contracts were traded FOR each other man. Big difference between that and trying to move Gay for flexibility

    And just because those teams would be happy to see the playoffs doesn't mean they'd compromise everything they've been working towards by acquiring Gay's albatross deal. We always love to speculate about trades that help us without considering the fact that if we were the other team, we would never deal Gordon+MKG for Gay's contract, or handicap our team financially by sending our only expirings away for Gay (when we know we still need to extend our star C and star PF), or throw away a chance at LeBron potentially returning for a marginal improvement on the wings (CJ Miles has actually been better than Gay this year in limited PT).
    Lewis was subsequently traded again to New Orleans... and never played.

    As for those teams, who knows what they want. Desperate teams do desperate things. Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte are all jokes and the only way to not become a joke is to start winning.

    Gay does have a player option. It is not set in stone team will have no flexibility.

    Question though: with the flexibility those teams would have, who would they target in FA over Gay? More importantly who would they actually get?

    Cleveland with LeBron is 100% speculation.

    Charlotte has struck out on the lottery year after year going for a top pick only to get knocked lower or make a questionable pick. They didn't sign Jefferson to continue to tank. Also, Gordon for Gay works straight up and they have the cap space to absorb his contract next season (same with Cleveland and Detroit).


    A big part of the problem with Gay right now is Casey. Teams might be thinking get him with a better coach and his talents can be maximized.

    Finally, Bargnani was traded. My concern is not if Gay can be traded, rather it is will they get anything worthwhile in return.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    But who's to say those teams will make the playoffs once they acquire Rudy? We arguably have better complementary pieces than Charlotte and Cleveland, and playoffs are looking like a longshot for us.
    I think that is the key word and I would argue it.

    Cleveland: Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Varejo, Jack all trump Raptors at respective positions in my opinion.

    Charlotte: Kemba, Jefferson all trump Raptors at respective positions. And Charlotte did beat the Raptors without Jefferson.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mike, prague's Avatar
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    Milwaukee is not tanking because they can't due to financial reasons. Not saying they won't suck as always, but they aren't tanking. I think they could somehow be a fit for Gay.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote mike, prague wrote: View Post
    Milwaukee is not tanking because they can't due to financial reasons. Not saying they won't suck as always, but they aren't tanking. I think they could somehow be a fit for Gay.
    Sanders is out 6 weeks.. now is the perfect time to see if the Bucks would be willing to trade for Gay.

    Gay for Butler (expiring), Udoh (expiring) and Giannis works.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    It's sad but true.

    It was only last trade deadline when the Grizzlies were seemingly trying to shop Gay to any team in the league who would listen. They reportedly offered him to Phoenix for Jared Dudley and Channing Frye's corpse... only to be turned down by the Suns! They ended up finding the perfect trade partner in Colangelo because a) he was desperate to save his job b) he has admitted to having a man crush on Rudy since his draft year and c) is an overall terrible GM. But generally speaking, the Grizzlies were practically trying to give him away and still couldn't get any bites.

    Fast forward a few months later and we're expecting the same teams who didn't want anything to do with him to be lining up at Ujiri's door offering great packages of assets for him.... when his value is even lower? My stomach churns at the thought of being stuck with him all year, and even worse, next year too. Sadly I think it's a real possibility.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    It's sad but true.

    It was only last trade deadline when the Grizzlies were seemingly trying to shop Gay to any team in the league who would listen. They reportedly offered him to Phoenix for Jared Dudley and Channing Frye's corpse... only to be turned down by the Suns! They ended up finding the perfect trade partner in Colangelo because a) he was desperate to save his job b) he has admitted to having a man crush on Rudy since his draft year and c) is an overall terrible GM. But generally speaking, the Grizzlies were practically trying to give him away and still couldn't get any bites.

    Fast forward a few months later and we're expecting the same teams who didn't want anything to do with him to be lining up at Ujiri's door offering great packages of assets for him.... when his value is even lower? My stomach churns at the thought of being stuck with him all year, and even worse, next year too. Sadly I think it's a real possibility.
    One thing to remember about last year is Memphis had a financial factor in their negotiations.

    They didn't want to take back any significant contract in return during not only last season but more importantly they didn't want any salary carrying in to this season so it really limited them in negotiation. For example, Washington could only make a deal with Okafor, Charlotte had Gordon.

    The Grizzlies eventually only took back Prince and Daye in the trade about $10M less last season and only Prince's $7-$7.5M moving forward for a starting SF replacement on a veteran team still trying to contend.

    I agree his value isn't very high but Memphis had different circumstances in their negotiations that I hope a large market with rich ownership is not going to encounter when at the trade table.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    I think it's an interesting question, to consider what the net return could be, should MU decide to really blow-up this team and look to trade all major assets - Gay, DeRozan, Lowry, Johnson, Novak, Hansborough, Fields, future 1st round picks (beyond 2014), 2nd round picks.

    Even if players don't net lottery picks, just amassing 1st round picks (ie: Lowry to a playoff team for a mid-late 1st round pick) would give MU even more options moving forward, whether at the deadline or during the draft:
    - could package mid-late 1st round pick with a player for a higher 1st round pick
    - could package multiple 1st round picks to move up in the draft

    If MU is happy taking back expiring contracts and perhaps a bad contract or two (which wouldn't be horrible if significant cap space is being cleared), he really could start wheeling-and-dealing.

    It's hard to speculate what each player is worth, especially in the 2014 draft. Injuries to contending teams could also drastically change the trade landscape. This could be more along the lines of what MU meant by "wait and see", speaking less about his own team and more about opportunities that present themselves as the season moves along.

    Regardless of where in the draft, or who the trade partner will be, could each of these be worth a 1st round pick of some sort?
    - Gay (maybe with cash or 1/2 2nd round picks or future 1st round pick - especially if he gives team verbal agreement to either opt-in or opt-out?)
    - DeRozan
    - Lowry
    - Johnson (maybe with a pick)
    - Novak (with a pick)
    - Hansborough & Fields (either with a pick or for a really bad contract in return - or as filler with one of those other players above)

    Without knowing the value of picks, the trade value of our players (we may be more critical against them than other GMs, if the Bargnani trade is any indication), or discussions already going on, it's really hard to properly gauge at this point. Fun to speculate nonetheless!

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think that is the key word and I would argue it.

    Cleveland: Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Varejo, Jack all trump Raptors at respective positions in my opinion.

    Charlotte: Kemba, Jefferson all trump Raptors at respective positions. And Charlotte did beat the Raptors without Jefferson.
    That's a stretch. Waiters is every bit the chucker DeMar and Gay are, and not even as good at it. I'd say Valanciunas is better than Varejao at this point.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think you can absolutely move Gay, but getting a 2014 pick might not be a part of it.

    Gay for Gordon and MKG makes so much sense for Charlotte. They get to add a perceived "star" player, plus if they keep their pick, then they can replace MKG fairly easily through the draft. If Gay opts-out, they try to resign him or they play their 2014 rookie instead. If Gay opts-in, they continue to compete and have an expiring to deal.

    Does Toronto benefit from getting Gordon and MKG (no 2014 pick)? I say yes. Gordon is obviously just for financial reasons, but MKG is still a top prospect who plays D, plays off-ball and in transition. If we can get a future pick, 2015/2016 then great, but to be honest, if we can get MKG and an expiring for Gay, then I'd be happy. Increase the value of our own 2014 pick at the same time, draft a stud PG or SG (depending on where our picks lands) and go from there.

    Lowry is harder to move because of the depth of the PG position imo. Until an injury or slump occurs, I don't think there is a great market for him. Brooklyn could use a legit back-up PG, but I can't remember if they can salary match or not.

    I also think that Cleveland will make a move if they believe that the player (Gay in this case) puts them into contention regardless of LBJ. Gilbert does not want to get burned by LBJ twice, and his ego requires winning. If Gay can raise his value enough for Cleveland to think he could fit beside Irving, Waiters, then I think Cleveland makes the decision based on Gay's merits, not LBJ.
    I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

    Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

    As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

    This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Sanders is out 6 weeks.. now is the perfect time to see if the Bucks would be willing to trade for Gay.

    Gay for Butler (expiring), Udoh (expiring) and Giannis works.
    If you were Milwaukee would you trade a guy with Giannis' physical tools who might have star potential, for an outside shot at the playoffs and 19M on your payroll?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    That's a stretch. Waiters is every bit the chucker DeMar and Gay are, and not even as good at it. I'd say Valanciunas is better than Varejao at this point.
    Just my opinion here but:

    Irving > Lowry
    Waiters < Demar but > Ross
    Thompson > Amir
    Varejo > JV right now
    Jack >>>>>>> Buycks, DJ, Stone

    So Waiters is the only downgrade for me... and that might not be for too much longer considering eh just entered his 2nd year.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

    Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

    As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

    This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?
    Every year, there are bad transactions after bad transactions, most of which make no sense whatsoever. We shouldn't assume we precisely know the exact mindset of every GM in the league.

    Besides, a good salesman is a good salesman.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    I know it's disheartening, but look at this from the perspective of the other team. Say you're the GM of Charlotte.

    Does acquiring Gay give you any chance of being higher than a 6-8 seed? No

    As a result of that, is it worth sacrificing virtually all your future financial flexibility in order to use him for a playoff push? No. Additionally, is it worth it to actually include the former #2 overall pick who still has a chance to grow and develop to acquire Gay? No.

    This whole Gay "raising his value" business doesn't mean a lot. Come on guys, WE know what kind of player he is: an inefficient chucker who should be a 3rd option, but will never accept that role and has a Kevin Durant mentality with the skillset of a much lesser player. Don't you think other GMs know that as well?
    I think it all depends on what they give up. I actually think Gay would fit very nicely with Walker, Jefferson & Biyombo. If they keep both Henderson & MKG, along with Zeller, that's a pretty decent 7-man rotation.

    If Gay opts-out, finances don't come into play. If he opts-in, he's a $19.3M expiring contract, which could have some value as a trade chip.

    MKG is only one option - Charlotte also has several current/future draft picks to include, along with Gordon.

    We also never know what GMs are thinking. I mean, of all the teams I thought Bargnani could end up being traded to, the Knicks (with Amare's huge, uninsured contract already manning the PF spot) were one of my least expected options.

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