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Thread: Where the REAL tankers at?

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    So 11 games into the season you're looking for "objective measurement of evidence" for his improvement??.....EVEN though you say you can clearly see it with your own eyes??? LOL

    First off i think the sample size is too small. You have to wait a bit longer to make difinitive statements on whether he is better this year compared to last season.

    With regards to the first bold.....do you see what many of us were saying about shooting 3's?? If you want to be a better 3 point shooter you HAVE to shoot more 3's. It's really common sense. This is why you see more 3's than ever before from Demar. Many of us were saying we prefer him attacking the basket, but understand that he needs to be a decent 3 point shooter in order to spread the floor. NOW he is a decent 3 point shooter (so far) and we hear even more criticisms (about him not attacking the rim more - blah blah blah).

    Second bold - Anyone who has watched most of the games this year can see that he still has to earn respect from the officials. MANY times he's getting fouled and not receiving calls. I think if he keeps at it, he'll get more respect from the officials.

    Look - 11 games into the season i'll take my eye-test over whatever useless stats (due to the sample size) that you want to throw out there.
    I'm going to dismiss all of this based on two things:
    1) Who said I was talking about stats from 2013/14? Not me, not once. I'm talking about his entire career-arc. The stats I pulled up earlier in this thread (vs. Mike James) are from 2012/13 for the sole purpose of avoiding small sample size conclusions.
    2) You're clearly here with the intent of being a trolling ass. Glad you've found something that turns your crank, but I'm not really interested.

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  3. #102
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think you should give any poster the respect of actually reading a post before you critique it. But your post is so ridiculous I'll entertain it... because, you know, I actually read it.

    You are comparing a fictional movie to the Raptors? Who said they want the Raptors to move? You think that another couple of losing seasons is going to cause the Raptors to relocate? They've been awful for 13/14 of 18 years. They've been one of the top 5 worst teams in the league during that time. If they are not moved now, they aren't moving. Despite all the crappy Raptor teams - including the current one:

    Toronto is 18th in the league in attendance in terms of capacity (91.6%).
    Toronto is 13th in the league in terms of average attendance (18,144) and about 500 a night out of the top 10.

    As for what you want to cheer for, enjoy it. This is another person who hasn't yet understood that expecting others to share your values, beliefs, and judgements is a major cognitive distortion.
    Fair enough. But you missed the whole point of my post. I wasn't singling you out, and I in fact praised your posting. The only part I had an issue with is the "we have a great fanbase" part of it. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction, but what you need to realize is that the people on these types of forums aren't the standard for all fans. I simply meant that there are people out there (which I think I also mentioned in 2 posts, that I was referring to a general attitude that I've seen personally, NOT exclusively on RR) is that the only way to win is to be the absolute worst. It wasn't about relocating. It was about taking the laziest possible route to getting good players, which in MY opinion is a bit of an insult to the game, effective or not.

    I don't know. I really didn't mean to boil your post down to a single sentence. I truly didn't. I'm just entirely sick of the #tankforwiggins bs I'm seeing everywhere. Maybe I just need to take a break.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

  4. #103
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    Fair enough. But you missed the whole point of my post. I wasn't singling you out, and I in fact praised your posting. The only part I had an issue with is the "we have a great fanbase" part of it. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction, but what you need to realize is that the people on these types of forums aren't the standard for all fans. I simply meant that there are people out there (which I think I also mentioned in 2 posts, that I was referring to a general attitude that I've seen personally, NOT exclusively on RR) is that the only way to win is to be the absolute worst. It wasn't about relocating. It was about taking the laziest possible route to getting good players, which in MY opinion is a bit of an insult to the game, effective or not.

    I don't know. I really didn't mean to boil your post down to a single sentence. I truly didn't. I'm just entirely sick of the #tankforwiggins bs I'm seeing everywhere. Maybe I just need to take a break.
    This is totally legitimate. "Trade them all!" is a pretty emotional fan reaction to the crappy basketball we're seeing (including some ugly wins), and of course there are a few different ways to move forward.

    Personally I'm glad that fans are having fun with the tanking idea, because otherwise this is projecting to be a miserable season. Nobody's really dedicated to tanking so much as being dedicated to just being better. Whatever way Ujiri gets this team there will be fine by everybody once they've finally arrived.

    Most of the tanking enthusiasm is tied to the 2014 draft. I'm not so sure Ujiri's going to let himself be pressured by the quality of that draft class. I've got a feeling he'll take a longer-term view and we may find his patience frustrating.

  5. #104
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Really?

    You don't read my posts then. I've acknowledged many past screw ups on opinions. I've nailed some things too but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You know what the key is though? Cutting your losses when you were/are wrong.

    I recently showed your own history of stellar opinions. Your hypocrisy was shown then I'm and not really in to proving that point again.

    It sounds to me like you wish to be a part of a big circle jerk. I'm not in to circle jerks to be honest. If people share the same opinion, so be it. If they have another one, that is cool - especially when they can back it up with solid reasoning/evidence. But your relentless pursuit to one up myself and other posters who share a difference of opinion is lame - especially when any objective view would show DD is what he is: an inefficient volume scorer. End. Of. Discussion.

    Choose your heroes wisely, kids.
    Really?? If i did, I would join your tanking group. You know the BIGGEST circle jerk there is on RR......lol You have sooo many posters in your circle because your a pro-tanker and believe in JV as our lord and saviour. I think it was like 75% pro-tankers on this site( the last time i checked out the poll). It's pretty hilarious. It's like a cult following.

    I'm not here to change your opinion of Demar. I'm hear to express my view. You point out all the bad. I point out some positive. I thought we agreed to disagree a long time ago? lol

  6. #105
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I'm going to dismiss all of this based on two things:
    1) Who said I was talking about stats from 2013/14? Not me, not once. I'm talking about his entire career-arc. The stats I pulled up earlier in this thread (vs. Mike James) are from 2012/13 for the sole purpose of avoiding small sample size conclusions.
    2) You're clearly here with the intent of being a trolling ass. Glad you've found something that turns your crank, but I'm not really interested.
    You may want to re-read your post. Here....I'll give you a couple snippets of what you just wrote.

    "I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he *now attempts* just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more.

    I really don't want to spend anymore time looking through your post because clearly your the one trolling. Who said you were talking about stats from 2013/14??? YOU!!! OMG
    Last edited by special1; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #106
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    You may want to re-read your post. Here....I'll give you a couple snippets of what you just wrote.

    "I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he *now attempts* just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more.

    I really don't want to spend anymore time looking through your post because clearly your the one trolling. Who said you were talking about stats from 2013/14??? YOU!!! OMG
    FYI "his entire career-arc" is going to include his production in 2013/14. Your accusation was that I was looking at small sample size stats, i.e. 2013/14 only.

    Again, I refer you to #2 in the post you quoted.
    Last edited by S.R.; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 05:44 PM.

  8. #107
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    FYI "his entire career-arc" is going to include his production in 2013/14. Your accusation was that I was looking at small sample size stats, i.e. 2013/14 only.

    Again, I refer you to #2 in the post you quoted.
    I must say that some of you guys really go OUT of your way to be rude. If it's a misunderstanding, then its a misunderstanding. Relax man. I don't know you, nor do i have anything personal against you. Clearly, you WERE looking at this year's stats as well. Again, my original point was that you have to wait a bit longer to make difinitive statements on whether he is better this year compared to last season (past years). Do you get that?? Were you not comparing him to his past seasons?? We're 11 games in and your already crying about a whole bunch of shit. Dude, he looks improved to me.....whether the numbers will back it up over a 82 game schedule is another thing.

    FYI - It's not cool to switch up your argument after you already made it. Nice try though.

  9. #108
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Someone please explain how DeMar DeRozan is better than 2005/06 Mike James:



    Link: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...per_game::none

    What's the point? Many players in the NBA could put up similar (and better) scoring numbers given the no-questions-asked green light that DeMar's been given.
    Again...blow up this team if it needs it. But do it on sound logic. Mike James has had a ten year NBA career averaging less than 10 points a game. You pick one aberrant season where he had not only his most FGA but also his best PPG by far. I don't think you can cherry pick like that. There are probably many good ways to put Demar's weaknesses in perspective I don't think using (the other) MJ holds water. Maybe Demar is better than 2005/2006 Mike James because there was also a 2001-2014 Mike James
    Last edited by Jclaw; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 06:17 PM.

  10. #109
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    Fair enough. But you missed the whole point of my post. I wasn't singling you out, and I in fact praised your posting. The only part I had an issue with is the "we have a great fanbase" part of it. It may have been a knee-jerk reaction, but what you need to realize is that the people on these types of forums aren't the standard for all fans. I simply meant that there are people out there (which I think I also mentioned in 2 posts, that I was referring to a general attitude that I've seen personally, NOT exclusively on RR) is that the only way to win is to be the absolute worst. It wasn't about relocating. It was about taking the laziest possible route to getting good players, which in MY opinion is a bit of an insult to the game, effective or not.

    I don't know. I really didn't mean to boil your post down to a single sentence. I truly didn't. I'm just entirely sick of the #tankforwiggins bs I'm seeing everywhere. Maybe I just need to take a break.
    Bold 1: Sorry. My misinterpretation.

    Bold 2: There is more than Wiggins in this draft. Honestly I have said this before and here goes again: I would not be surprised if he is not #1. It is also not just about this draft, this team is crap. It is built on the foundation Colangelo made. Time to rid the organization once and for all. Not taking a shot at Colangelo, its just what he did didn't work - move on.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #110
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold 1: Sorry. My misinterpretation.

    Bold 2: There is more than Wiggins in this draft. Honestly I have said this before and here goes again: I would not be surprised if he is not #1. It is also not just about this draft, this team is crap. It is built on the foundation Colangelo made. Time to rid the organization once and for all. Not taking a shot at Colangelo, its just what he did didn't work - move on.
    Just to add on this… id take a top 6 pick and be beyond happy with that. All of those guys will be franchise changing players. Top 3 especially but small drop off from 1-3 - 4-6. IMO at this point

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  13. #111
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Again...blow up this team if it needs it. But do it on sound logic. Mike James has had a ten year NBA career averaging less than 10 points a game. You pick one aberrant season where he had not only his most FGA but also his best PPG by far. I don't think you can cherry pick like that. There are probably many good ways to put Demar's weaknesses in perspective I don't think using (the other) MJ holds water. Maybe Demar is better than 2005/2006 Mike James because there was also a 2001-2014 Mike James
    The only point of that comparo is at the bottom: "Many players in the NBA could put up similar (and better) scoring numbers given the no-questions-asked green light DeMar's been given." I think DeMar's shot attempts need to be reigned in and he needs a more focused role within more of a team-first system (same for Gay, obviously). The "let them gun 'cause they're gunners" mentality is absurd - again, green light a guy even as limited as Mike James and, as you pointed out, he can put up similar numbers to DeMar.

  14. #112
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    It goes to show how quickly you change paths.....How quickly we go from one extreme (no flexibility) to wanting to TANK and trade the very same guys you wanted so badly. The very same guys who you critisize and say you don't even want to wait and see. Sorry, if i don't forget that easily. You can jump on the tank bandwagon, BUT you can't pretend that you didn't want this in the first place!
    Last year with Colangelo in charge, there was zero chance of a "tanked" season. My theory was, why wish for something that was never going to happen?

    This year, with Masai in charge, it's a completely different ball game. EDIT: And a much bigger prize.

    The smart thing to do is adjust your opinion as new evidence becomes available. The Earth isn't flat anymore, special
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:46 AM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  16. #113
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Default Question to all tankers

    Do you think JV will resign after not making the playoffs after 4 years?

    It's funny that JV fab boys are one in same as the tankers. People think that it's going to be as simple as drafting someone this year and than making the playoffs next season. It's not going to be that easy. If Lebron didn't make the playoffs his rookie year than these guys won't either. We're looking at least at a 3 year rebuilding process. That's only if we pick up a nice vet free agent who wants to play for a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 8 years. Get him at market value too lol. Back to my question. Do you think JV will resign after 4 years of no any post season?



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  17. #114
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    If Lebron didn't make the playoffs his rookie year
    Lebron had a shit team in Cleveland. We don't expect to be that shit and have such a lazy gm as to not surround the key players with decent talent.

    Plus, I'm pretty sure everyone learned that from when Lebron left Cleveland. Even Bosh leaving Toronto. You need to have good surrounding players and depth.
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  18. #115
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Yes. Of course he will, or rather could. Direction is everything.

    2 basic scenarios:

    -Raps scrape for possible early playoff exits this season and next, then need to rebuild anyway as they lack the right pieces to get to another level moving forward. The likely rebuild starts in Jonas' last year. Therefore he goes into the summer with the Raps likely having his worst season while with the team. Why would he want to re-sign into such a situation?

    -Raps scrap the current roster and aim for a development movement for a couple of years, getting a high draft pick a year or two in a row, and adding any other assets they can. While taking a step back this year, in all likelihood by Jonas' final year the team will be on the upswing, even if not the playoffs, with younger players and hopefully a legit core, and the obvious chance to keep improving and be a perennial playoff team and possibly finally having roster pieces that can reach the elite level of true contenders. This sounds like a much better situation to me.

    Either way, we need a new coach.

  19. #116
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    This is the second biggest reason to start the rebuild now, if that's what Ujiri wants.

    The biggest reason is to try to take advantage of a great 2014 draft class, but re: keeping Jonas happy - 3 more seasons is PLENTY of time to score a couple key building blocks (whether through the draft, trade, or FA). If the team is still not that great in terms of W/L, but there are clearly a couple of high-ceiling, talented pieces on the roster along with JV, then yes, absolutely I would think he'd be interested in re-signing and sticking around for the journey.

    If you continue with 2 or 3 more years of Colangelo-esque treading water while trying to retool on the fly, then JV is much more likely to bolt. That's your biggest risk with him (other than having the wing players ignore him in the post game after game after game....).

  20. #117
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Don't forget that the type of top-5 prospect we're talking about in the '14 draft, are NBA-ready players (not "projects" that require 4+ years to develop). Yes, there will be a learning curve, but it'll be a relatively short one. Think Anthony Davis or Damian Lillard.

    Also, on the off-chance the Raptors still stink by Jonas' contract year, and he hasn't agreed to an extension, trade him. Why go through the Bosh situation again? Get some good pieces in return (just like Masai did with Melo). We all love Jonas, but our championship hopes don't solely rest on his shoulders.
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  22. #118
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold 1: Sorry. My misinterpretation.

    Bold 2: There is more than Wiggins in this draft. Honestly I have said this before and here goes again: I would not be surprised if he is not #1. It is also not just about this draft, this team is crap. It is built on the foundation Colangelo made. Time to rid the organization once and for all. Not taking a shot at Colangelo, its just what he did didn't work - move on.
    No need to apologize, it wasn't an entirely clear comparison. And your opinion about the direction of the team isn't the one I was mentioning, I really tried to make that distinction. I have to problem if Ujiri tears it down because there truly IS so much talent in the top 6 of this draft, but the #tankforwiggins movement/bandwagon is what sets me off. It's on here occasionally, it's on twitter, it's on other forums I frequent... and it's short sighted. I was bringing up something you said in reference to this, but I tried to distinguish your posts from that general attitude.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

  23. #119
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Don't forget that the type of top-5 prospect we're talking about in the '14 draft, are NBA-ready players (not "projects" that require 4+ years to develop). Yes, there will be a learning curve, but it'll be a relatively short one. Think Anthony Davis or Damian Lillard.

    Also, on the off-chance the Raptors still stink by Jonas' contract year, and he hasn't agreed to an extension, trade him. Why go through the Bosh situation again? Get some good pieces in return (just like Masai did with Melo). We all love Jonas, but our championship hopes don't solely rest on his shoulders.
    This is interesting post. They can put up as much number as they want. Doesn't matter unless if you win.


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  24. #120
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    1- JV can't leave after 4 years. 5 minimum, and that's accepting a major pay cut for the 5th year and also announcing that you don't want to be here long-term Garanteeing a trade.

    2-Lebron didn't make the playoffs in his rookie year ? are you serious, you couldn't find any other rookies who have ? or did you mean Lebron didn't carry a team to the playoffs in his rookie year ? Haven't we learned in 18 years that cashing in on our 1 star player is not gonna cut it ? If he leaves that would be the reason more than anything.

    3-If in 3 years the teams' struggles are gonna be pinned on this season, then we have way more problems then that We haven't made them in the last 5 years, we brought back the team that was suppose to make it last year, and still don't look like we'll make it.

    JV leaves in 5 years it has nothing to do with the GM making moves so he gets more space and more touches, you're just reaching.

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