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Thread: Where the REAL tankers at?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    What?? This isn't remotely true. Is this really why those who don't want major changes continue to pretend that those who do hate the current players and won't cheer for the Raptors until they're gone? What a crock.

    I cheer for the Raptors to win every night, and am happy when they do. I'd be overjoyed if this team somehow won a playoff series -- I just don't think it's possible. My belief that it's not possible doesn't get in the way of my desire to see it happen.

    It's possible to both be a good fan, cheer for your team, and still believe IT'S JUST NOT THAT GOOD A TEAM.
    Well you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Almost every website that I go to (partially on here, although I'm not laying a blanket of ignorance on the tanking side) decries wins as a road to a worse draft pick and finishes it off #tankforwiggins.
    All I meant to say is that cheering for a "w" for the Raps and actually supporting the team are 2 different things, in my eye at least. If Ujiri decides to change the team via trades/free agency, shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? I mean we have so many contracts expring in the next two years and there's LOTS of good drafts coming up, why not let him do his thing instead of assuming that you understand his plan or the offers he's been given from other GM's? What if we get rid of Rudy for a serviceable player and make a smart mid-lotto pick and sign a better pg than Lowry, and become a 52-win team next year? There's more than one avenue to win, and I'm just so over everybody saying that they're a fan of the team and talking shit about the roster after every game, win or lose
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Bold: It's not that the current roster is incapable of wins. However, are they and continue to be for an extended future capable of wins or at least be very competitive against the BEST teams in the league. The objective being going deep into the playoffs. The answer imo is "no".

    Even though I am for a breakup of the current team, cheering for the team to fail is counter productive. That would minimize a return for our disposable players in a trade. I am assuming of course that Ujiri blows up the roster in December and floors a team talently incapable of winning much the rest of the season (enabling a high pick).
    I get that. But guess what.... I don't really care because I have literally zero control over it. That's why I just hope for whatever roster our GM puts on the floor to play to their full potential. If they don't achieve, then it's on the GM to make the smart moves and I'll start each Raps game with the same enthusiasm I always do in the interim.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

  3. #43
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    Well you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Almost every website that I go to (partially on here, although I'm not laying a blanket of ignorance on the tanking side) decries wins as a road to a worse draft pick and finishes it off #tankforwiggins.
    All I meant to say is that cheering for a "w" for the Raps and actually supporting the team are 2 different things, in my eye at least. If Ujiri decides to change the team via trades/free agency, shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? I mean we have so many contracts expring in the next two years and there's LOTS of good drafts coming up, why not let him do his thing instead of assuming that you understand his plan or the offers he's been given from other GM's? What if we get rid of Rudy for a serviceable player and make a smart mid-lotto pick and sign a better pg than Lowry, and become a 52-win team next year? There's more than one avenue to win, and I'm just so over everybody saying that they're a fan of the team and talking shit about the roster after every game, win or lose
    I don't think I've read anybody argue that there's only 1 correct path. What I have heard argued is that the path of keeping a capped-out core of Gay, DeRozan & Lowry, moving forward, is very likely not one of those viable paths to success.

    As strong an advocate I am for rebuilding/retooling this team, I never cheer against them. The win against a confused Memphis team and a potential win against a Rose-less Bulls team tonight are, however, hollow victories. I don't believe they are a true measure of this roster's worth and they could prove to be wasted wins, should MU decide to choose one of many rebuilding/retooling paths that include the 2014 draft as a component.

    You can support your team 100% while still believing certain player(s), or the coach or GM, are not ideal fits for the team you cheer for. You can also be passionate about your team, while believing the direction they're taking is a poor choice (ie: the BC years).

    It's said that love is blind, but being a passionate, loyal supporter of a sports franchise shouldn't require blinders.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Just putting the question out there, just to separate the fair weather tankers from the real tankers, but are you ready to commit to a Charlotte Bobcats type rebuild (worse case scenario)? We all know the draft lottery doesn't guarantee anything. We can argue that they didn't have MU making their picks, but nobody can guarantee things will go any better for us than it has for them, and there is no denying that the pro tankers are advocating we do as Charlotte has done.

    I can tell you that there is more than a handful of Charlotte fans that would take a 50 win team without a prayer of contending over what they have right now (insert joke about them taking a 30 win team)

    I'm just asking 'cause lately with all the tank avatars and all the posters jumping on the band wagon is getting pretty crazy. How committed are ya'll?
    Umm, I watched Jabari Parker and something exploded in my pants. Tank away!!!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't think I've read anybody argue that there's only 1 correct path. What I have heard argued is that the path of keeping a capped-out core of Gay, DeRozan & Lowry, moving forward, is very likely not one of those viable paths to success.

    As strong an advocate I am for rebuilding/retooling this team, I never cheer against them. The win against a confused Memphis team and a potential win against a Rose-less Bulls team tonight are, however, hollow victories. I don't believe they are a true measure of this roster's worth and they could prove to be wasted wins, should MU decide to choose one of many rebuilding/retooling paths that include the 2014 draft as a component.

    You can support your team 100% while still believing certain player(s), or the coach or GM, are not ideal fits for the team you cheer for. You can also be passionate about your team, while believing the direction they're taking is a poor choice (ie: the BC years).

    It's said that love is blind, but being a passionate, loyal supporter of a sports franchise shouldn't require blinders.
    That's all fair, and like I said I have a lot of respect for how you voice your opinion. I also agree that this exact roster has a finite capacity for success. But if we were truly going to blow it up and tank, we would have taken that Detroit offer for Stuckey and CV because NOBODY IS GOING TO GIVE UP A FIRST FOR RUDY. I agree that rebuilding and retooling aren't always mutually exclusive, but a lot of people (again... not pointing fingers at posters here, I'm not even on here enough to know most of youse guyses opinions) speak about losing and tanking like they're the only way to rebuild. Everything about our future has been tied to the 2014 draft but until I see one single move that signals us becoming a worse team than we started the season, I'm going to assume that we're going the retooling route. This is why I'm anti-tank, because at the moment, it's just a bunch of people putting words in Ujiri's mouth.
    WITH THAT BEING SAID.....
    If we DO get rid of, say Rudy and DD and trade Lowry for an asset at the deadline, as long as we do it properly I'm cool with that. I have no problem tanking if it's MU that pulls the trigger.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    ...also, 3 of the top 4 threads in the forum right now are about tanking.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    ...also, 3 of the top 4 threads in the forum right now are about tanking.
    There are probably another 7-8 million tucked away in the archives....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    However if the draft is the best worst option and no significant player is ever going to view Toronto as a desirable free agent destination are you suggesting the Raptors are going to forever suck and the only option is to get a superstar in the 10-17 range?
    No, I don't think there's ever a case of 'only option'. To me, it's more about recognizing opportunity when it appears and being in a position to act on it. Opportunity comes in many forms, from trades to free agent signings. It also means recognizing when windows to compete appear. And the more options you leave on the table, the better your chances of finding something that's going to beat the odds. The best way to do that is to have a good team full of valuable, moveable assets. Young players, draft picks, expirings, useful veterans on short and affordable contracts, mixed with some bargain-bin guys that have buy-low/sell-high potential. (Arguably, most of the Raptors current roster other than Gay fits this). This is generally similar to what Ujiri did in Denver. I don't want the Raptors to do anything that locks them in to only one strategy going forward. But creating a more fluid, useful roster is certainly compatible with tanking, at least in the short term.

    What I don't want is for the Raptors to get locked into a "superstars can only be acquired through the draft so we'll suck until we acquire one" model, because that forces you to devalue the assets you currently have, some of which might be very good secondary pieces. I don't think most pro-tankers are advocating that strategy, especially on Raptors Republic. But there are some fans out there who hold to that mentality.

    Definitely, the Raptors should do everything they can to make themselvesa desirable free agent destination. Some of these things are off-court. On court, it means acquiring players that other players want to play with, coaches that players want to play for, and playing a style of basketball that players want to play. No free agent wants to be fourth-option in an iso-heavy offence, no matter how good the defence is.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    What?? This isn't remotely true. Is this really why those who don't want major changes continue to pretend that those who do hate the current players and won't cheer for the Raptors until they're gone? What a crock.

    I cheer for the Raptors to win every night, and am happy when they do. I'd be overjoyed if this team somehow won a playoff series -- I just don't think it's possible. My belief that it's not possible doesn't get in the way of my desire to see it happen.

    It's possible to both be a good fan, cheer for your team, and still believe IT'S JUST NOT THAT GOOD A TEAM.
    I'm happy when they win and happy when they lose.

    It is the best of both worlds for a fan.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't think I've read anybody argue that there's only 1 correct path. What I have heard argued is that the path of keeping a capped-out core of Gay, DeRozan & Lowry, moving forward, is very likely not one of those viable paths to success.

    As strong an advocate I am for rebuilding/retooling this team, I never cheer against them. The win against a confused Memphis team and a potential win against a Rose-less Bulls team tonight are, however, hollow victories. I don't believe they are a true measure of this roster's worth and they could prove to be wasted wins, should MU decide to choose one of many rebuilding/retooling paths that include the 2014 draft as a component.

    You can support your team 100% while still believing certain player(s), or the coach or GM, are not ideal fits for the team you cheer for. You can also be passionate about your team, while believing the direction they're taking is a poor choice (ie: the BC years).

    It's said that love is blind, but being a passionate, loyal supporter of a sports franchise shouldn't require blinders.
    Would you prefer losses or 'hollow victories'? I am being serious not trying to be disrespectful.

    I believe that a big part of winning is finding a way to win and believing you can win. The more you develop the latter the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  13. #51
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm happy when they win and happy when they lose.

    It is the best of both worlds for a fan.
    But if they don't get enough losses or enough wins we get 9-10th seed which is what we all dread.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    What I don't want is for the Raptors to get locked into a "superstars can only be acquired through the draft so we'll suck until we acquire one" model, because that forces you to devalue the assets you currently have, some of which might be very good secondary pieces. I don't think most pro-tankers are advocating that strategy, especially on Raptors Republic. But there are some fans out there who hold to that mentality.

    Definitely, the Raptors should do everything they can to make themselvesa desirable free agent destination. Some of these things are off-court. On court, it means acquiring players that other players want to play with, coaches that players want to play for, and playing a style of basketball that players want to play. No free agent wants to be fourth-option in an iso-heavy offence, no matter how good the defence is.

    Superstars can be acquired via trade. Well if we want to trade for one, Val and our pick would have to be included, so the team will be handicapped to add good pieces around them, so the Superstar will likely walk asap, like LBJ did after Cleveland failed to put good pieces around him. Not a good scenario for a Raps fan. Now it is possible to land a superstar doing this...but there is no guarantee that they don't walk after their contract is up.

    A superstar isn't going to come to Toronto as a FA because of one reason. We are a shitty team. Period. No superstar is looking at the Raps and saying "I would really love to play for that team that has been mismanaged for the last 18 years"

    So that leaves the draft as our most likely avenue for landing a superstar, or a collection of stars that can be built into a contending team, but that means selling assets now (KL/DD/RG) for anything that helps us long term.

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  16. #53
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm happy when they win and happy when they lose.

    It is the best of both worlds for a fan.
    Try cheering for the other 29 NBA teams, I find that it is a good switch in perspective and I learn more about different player combinations that are run by other teams. Also means that I'm indirectly cheering for Wiggins

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Would you prefer losses or 'hollow victories'? I am being serious not trying to be disrespectful.

    I believe that a big part of winning is finding a way to win and believing you can win. The more you develop the latter the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    As I said, they'd be hollow victories if MU does decide to go the route of a tank/rebuild/retool, rather than go all-in to win this season. Without knowing the direction the team is going to take, it's hard to know which outcome to prefer for the long-term. In the short-term, I still root for them. I just worry that if what I believe to be the inevitable happens, then we could wind up looking back on some of these wins the same way to do the infamous 'Uzoh triple-double' game.

    If, however, the bulk of the current core is going to remain in Toronto for the long-term, then there is something to be said about character building wins and even a quick first round playoff exit.

    It all comes down to what happens to the current capped-out core. For instance, some people were claiming that the meaningless wins at the end of the past two seasons (especially 2 seasons ago, which cost us Barnes/Lillard) were character/culture building for this franchise. I argued then and still believe now, that rationale like that is silly, especially when half the roster is gone the following season. Again, if MU does decide to pursue even some degree of rebuilding/retooling, how much of an impact will meaningless wins really have for this team when half or more of the roster won't be here next season?

    The most frustrating part as a fan right now, is not knowing MU's intentions.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Nov 15th, 2013 at 04:20 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    No, I don't think there's ever a case of 'only option'. To me, it's more about recognizing opportunity when it appears and being in a position to act on it. Opportunity comes in many forms, from trades to free agent signings. It also means recognizing when windows to compete appear. And the more options you leave on the table, the better your chances of finding something that's going to beat the odds. The best way to do that is to have a good team full of valuable, moveable assets. Young players, draft picks, expirings, useful veterans on short and affordable contracts, mixed with some bargain-bin guys that have buy-low/sell-high potential. (Arguably, most of the Raptors current roster other than Gay fits this). This is generally similar to what Ujiri did in Denver. I don't want the Raptors to do anything that locks them in to only one strategy going forward. But creating a more fluid, useful roster is certainly compatible with tanking, at least in the short term.

    What I don't want is for the Raptors to get locked into a "superstars can only be acquired through the draft so we'll suck until we acquire one" model, because that forces you to devalue the assets you currently have, some of which might be very good secondary pieces. I don't think most pro-tankers are advocating that strategy, especially on Raptors Republic. But there are some fans out there who hold to that mentality.

    Definitely, the Raptors should do everything they can to make themselvesa desirable free agent destination. Some of these things are off-court. On court, it means acquiring players that other players want to play with, coaches that players want to play for, and playing a style of basketball that players want to play. No free agent wants to be fourth-option in an iso-heavy offence, no matter how good the defence is.
    Opportunity needs flexibility and assets to appear.

    You keep this core and there is no flexibility for 2 years

    What assets do the Raptors have that another team would want? (JV and picks - which are exactly what the Raptors needs to keep if they are keeping this core)
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Try cheering for the other 29 NBA teams, I find that it is a good switch in perspective and I learn more about different player combinations that are run by other teams. Also means that I'm indirectly cheering for Wiggins
    That would leave me not a fan of the Raptors though, wouldn't it?

    I'm all about the Raptors. I just think they should lose a lot now to maximize their chances to win a lot later.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    I didn't read this whole post, and I know that your opinion of the direction we should take is very well researched and thought out. I completely understand. But to call us a great fanbase at the moment is like saying the owner in the first Major League movie was one of the best because she wanted to make a team so bad that they could leave Cleveland and move to a new stadium in Miami and draw better players. That's better for the franchise, technically. Right? I mean, that's a decisive, forward-thinking mentality.

    Half the fanbase refuses to cheer for the people on the court. I'm all for tanking when our highly-touted GM makes that the official plan and puts moves in place, but if the team we have on the court now is capable of wins, I'm cheering for wins. If Ujiri blows it up this afternoon and puts scrubs on the court, I'm still cheering for wins but completely understanding if the assembled roster is incapable and looking forward to what that brings.
    I think you should give any poster the respect of actually reading a post before you critique it. But your post is so ridiculous I'll entertain it... because, you know, I actually read it.

    You are comparing a fictional movie to the Raptors? Who said they want the Raptors to move? You think that another couple of losing seasons is going to cause the Raptors to relocate? They've been awful for 13/14 of 18 years. They've been one of the top 5 worst teams in the league during that time. If they are not moved now, they aren't moving. Despite all the crappy Raptor teams - including the current one:

    Toronto is 18th in the league in attendance in terms of capacity (91.6%).
    Toronto is 13th in the league in terms of average attendance (18,144) and about 500 a night out of the top 10.

    As for what you want to cheer for, enjoy it. This is another person who hasn't yet understood that expecting others to share your values, beliefs, and judgements is a major cognitive distortion.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Opportunity needs flexibility and assets to appear.

    You keep this core and there is no flexibility for 2 years

    What assets do the Raptors have that another team would want? (JV and picks - which are exactly what the Raptors needs to keep if they are keeping this core)
    Hmm, you'll need to point out to me where I suggested keeping the core together. I said that other than Gay, everybody on the team has value as a moveable asset. Key word: moveable. ie. The opposite of keeping this group together. It's a constant process of improving that asset base, and you need to constantly be looking to upgrade the value of your roster. The second a playoff-contending team needs a veteran backup point guard, you get on the phone seeing if there's any way you can pry even a second-rounder out of them for Lowry. That's a net asset win. If you can turn him into something valuable, you do. If not, I have no problem letting him expire. Similar situation for nearly everybody on this team, though obviously some have more or less trade value than others. Any trade that gives you more flexibility and better assets is a win. Any time you can sign a free agent that you can flip for picks or prospects later (Hansborough, perhaps), that's a win. Gay's a special case because he'll be difficult to trade. I'd take a trade that moves him for anything that increases our flexibility. Splitting his $17 million contract into two $9 million contracts on similar lengths is a win in terms of flexibility.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    Hmm, you'll need to point out to me where I suggested keeping the core together. I said that other than Gay, everybody on the team has value as a moveable asset. Key word: moveable. ie. The opposite of keeping this group together. It's a constant process of improving that asset base, and you need to constantly be looking to upgrade the value of your roster. The second a playoff-contending team needs a veteran backup point guard, you get on the phone seeing if there's any way you can pry even a second-rounder out of them for Lowry. That's a net asset win. If you can turn him into something valuable, you do. If not, I have no problem letting him expire. Similar situation for nearly everybody on this team, though obviously some have more or less trade value than others. Any trade that gives you more flexibility and better assets is a win. Any time you can sign a free agent that you can flip for picks or prospects later (Hansborough, perhaps), that's a win. Gay's a special case because he'll be difficult to trade. I'd take a trade that moves him for anything that increases our flexibility. Splitting his $17 million contract into two $9 million contracts on similar lengths is a win in terms of flexibility.
    Bold 1: Sorry, you're right.

    Bold 2: Everybody is moveable, sure, but I don't think you're getting upgrades without including prospects and picks.

    Bold 3: I look at flexibility as cap space. If you have desirable players on desirable contracts you often keep them. If you are trading for all-star or elite talent typically you need prospects (Raps have just 2), picks, and cap space or expiring contracts. Raptors don't have any expiring contracts for another year and they should be keeping their prospects and picks if they are planning to move forward capped out.

    Overall I agree with your points. The strategy is certainly there. I just don't think Toronto's pieces have much value to get significant assets in return - minor ones like 2nd round draft picks, sure.

    I'm a little confused by your posts overall though. I get you don't want to be locked in to one way of getting better but if you trade Lowry for a 2nd round pick that is tanking - straight up. This team would crumble with Buycks, Augustin, or Stone running the team for any significant minutes a night.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Yeah, it makes sense that my posts are confusing, this is partly me trying to articulate for myself what exactly my perspective is right now. It's a lot more theoretical and philosophical than having specific examples of what moves I would make. If I had to reduce it to a single line, it would be that good asset management (assets including everything from draft picks to players to cap space to flexibility) is more important to eventually becoming a contending team than the decision whether or not to tank. Though good asset management may naturally result in tanking for a year. Bad asset management may result in going into the tank and not being able to get back out for a decade, or may result in being perpetually on the mediocrity treadmill.

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