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Thread: Where the REAL tankers at?

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    Yeah, it makes sense that my posts are confusing, this is partly me trying to articulate for myself what exactly my perspective is right now. It's a lot more theoretical and philosophical than having specific examples of what moves I would make. If I had to reduce it to a single line, it would be that good asset management (assets including everything from draft picks to players to cap space to flexibility) is more important to eventually becoming a contending team than the decision whether or not to tank. Though good asset management may naturally result in tanking for a year. Bad asset management may result in going into the tank and not being able to get back out for a decade, or may result in being perpetually on the mediocrity treadmill.
    I like the fact you've clearly put a lot of thought from numerous angles and perspectives.

    Without question it is about asset management whereby good asset management sees assets maximized to their fullest potential and the correct decisions are made with the assets at disposal.

    If that makes it all sound too simple, I apologize it is anything but simple.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    I cheer for all the good plays the raptors make. However, if at the end of the game they're losing, I sigh and think about the draft.

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    If you want to see dedication to the tank: Boston is currently offering to trade Gerald Wallace and Courtney Lee to New York for Amar'e Stoudemire. Nothing else. Just Amar'e.

    Why? Their ostensible reason is that Amar'e clears off the books a year sooner than Wallace and Lee do. Their real reason is that Wallace and Lee are playing well.

  5. #64
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    There are two maybe 3 players i want to stay. JV as discussed is an un-tradeable. Demar unless I'm getting a sweet package in return. We are finally seeing what Demar can be (like i've been saying forever) *cough cough… and Ross. I would trade Ross, but i want to see what he can be before we give up on him because as i think we're all aware of … he's got a lot of talent. But i mean if were offered a top 10 2014 pick and a young kid for demar ill jump all over that. (just saying not saying that would ever happen.) I am a huge Demar fan and was at the Chicago game where he put the team on his back. He was subbed out of the game to the weakest ovation I've ever heard. It was pathetic. This is a guy we can put into our future imo. Rudy must must must go. Now. Honestly if we want to tank i think the best thing we could do is let rudy play 48 minutes.

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    I would trade anybody other than JV.

    But, truthfully, if I had to choose 3. JV, Ross, Amir.

    Ross, well, still has some "unproven" talent, and Amir is a good first big off the bench, probably one of the best in the league, IMO that is.

    That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to let Ross/Amir go, if that was required ina package to get something good back.

  8. #66
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    There are two maybe 3 players i want to stay. JV as discussed is an un-tradeable. Demar unless I'm getting a sweet package in return. We are finally seeing what Demar can be (like i've been saying forever) *cough cough… and Ross. I would trade Ross, but i want to see what he can be before we give up on him because as i think we're all aware of … he's got a lot of talent. But i mean if were offered a top 10 2014 pick and a young kid for demar ill jump all over that. (just saying not saying that would ever happen.) I am a huge Demar fan and was at the Chicago game where he put the team on his back. He was subbed out of the game to the weakest ovation I've ever heard. It was pathetic. This is a guy we can put into our future imo. Rudy must must must go. Now. Honestly if we want to tank i think the best thing we could do is let rudy play 48 minutes.
    The only thing DeRozan does is score. He had one game against Chicago when the game was already decided where he scored anything remotely efficient.

    His eFG% on year is 43.8% (worse than last season)
    His TS% on the year is 49.5% (worse than last season)

    For perspective the average NBA SG is 50% and 54.9%.

    DeRozan is a guy who is a scorer but not a very efficient one, a poor rebounder especially given his size advantage at SG, a poor creator, and a poor defender. Yes, he is finally showing what he can be but more importantly what he is.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    There are two maybe 3 players i want to stay. JV as discussed is an un-tradeable. Demar unless I'm getting a sweet package in return. We are finally seeing what Demar can be (like i've been saying forever) *cough cough… and Ross. I would trade Ross, but i want to see what he can be before we give up on him because as i think we're all aware of … he's got a lot of talent. But i mean if were offered a top 10 2014 pick and a young kid for demar ill jump all over that. (just saying not saying that would ever happen.) I am a huge Demar fan and was at the Chicago game where he put the team on his back. He was subbed out of the game to the weakest ovation I've ever heard. It was pathetic. This is a guy we can put into our future imo. Rudy must must must go. Now. Honestly if we want to tank i think the best thing we could do is let rudy play 48 minutes.
    I find this confusing. Are you saying that you are happy with Demar production to-date?

    All I see is another year of inefficient chucking. Sure he scores 20, but if he takes 19 shots to get there is it worth it? I'm no mathmetologist, but when you get at least 2 points per score, your shot attempts shouldn't be level with your points. Still no handles, still no D.

    Ross has impressed with little fanfare. He seems to be getting it together this year and could be our future SG

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    Every year I end up taking DeRozen in the later rounds of my fantasy pool and I always get burned which leads me to dropping him by mid November and this year was no different. His FG% and lack of anything helpful besides points created a huge hole for me to dig my way out of in terms of boosting my team's FG%.

    DeRozen is fool's gold.

    He's best off being a 6th man on a great team, not a 1 or 1A on a team like Toronto.
    Walking like I'm already there.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing DeRozan does is score. He had one game against Chicago when the game was already decided where he scored anything remotely efficient.

    His eFG% on year is 43.8% (worse than last season)
    His TS% on the year is 49.5% (worse than last season)

    For perspective the average NBA SG is 50% and 54.9%.

    DeRozan is a guy who is a scorer but not a very efficient one, a poor rebounder especially given his size advantage at SG, a poor creator, and a poor defender. Yes, he is finally showing what he can be but more importantly what he is.
    I see the stats, but you also have to look at his game. I see Demar growing into an all-star. His game is showing a balance and i personally see him making a lot of good decisions. I see him making rotations on defence and i see a passion to win, an impressive work ethic and and want to be in Toronto. Maybe i just like the guy too much but i see him making good decisions when to shoot or drive and i see Demar as a willing passer whose next improvement on his game is to know when to kick the ball out more. Seeing his development and continued growth he's just not a player i would trade unless there is a significant package with involves a top 10 pick this year...

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  14. #70
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I find this confusing. Are you saying that you are happy with Demar production to-date?

    All I see is another year of inefficient chucking. Sure he scores 20, but if he takes 19 shots to get there is it worth it? I'm no mathmetologist, but when you get at least 2 points per score, your shot attempts shouldn't be level with your points. Still no handles, still no D.

    Ross has impressed with little fanfare. He seems to be getting it together this year and could be our future SG
    Demar is shooting a much better percentage than a point per shot. Hes also done a fantastic job getting to the free throw line. He's a guy who has taken over 4th quarters and not just one shot at the buzzer. (yes i will give credit where its due to rudy.. but still.) I am happy with Demars performance overall but obviously there is still room for improvement. I see good decisions being made on the offensive end. He's doing a good job of attacking, and taking his shots when they are there. I see him making good rotations on d and not letting blow bys (unless I'm missing them?) and sure his handle isn't great but he's getting to the rim so i can't complain too much.

    Im not sure if Ross is starters quality or not… but i hope to be shown either way by the end of this season/ start of next season.

  15. #71
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    Demar is shooting a much better percentage than a point per shot. Hes also done a fantastic job getting to the free throw line. He's a guy who has taken over 4th quarters and not just one shot at the buzzer. (yes i will give credit where its due to rudy.. but still.) I am happy with Demars performance overall but obviously there is still room for improvement. I see good decisions being made on the offensive end. He's doing a good job of attacking, and taking his shots when they are there. I see him making good rotations on d and not letting blow bys (unless I'm missing them?) and sure his handle isn't great but he's getting to the rim so i can't complain too much.

    Im not sure if Ross is starters quality or not… but i hope to be shown either way by the end of this season/ start of next season.
    He is scoring 20 points on 18 shots, so point per shot? This isn't hockey, you get 2 points for every score. Compare, Demar's 203 FGA for 226 points to say Kevin Martin, 175 shots for 244 points. Demar shots more and gets you less.

    His shooting % is down and is taking a career high in shots per game with a career high in Usage%. His FTA is basically par for his career (which has always been good but not great). His rebounding hasn't improved (his % has actually declined) and he is still not a play-maker (par for assists).

    He still doesn't fight through screens and is often in the wrong place. He may not get blown by as much, but he gives up way too many open looks (not much need to blow by when you're that wide open), and is bad at almost every other facet of defence. The last Raptor who could only play one form of D (1-on-1 in the post) while being abysmal at every other facet of D was also a high volume, low % shooter, and we were all pretty happy to see him go.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    He is scoring 20 points on 18 shots, so point per shot? This isn't hockey, you get 2 points for every score. Compare, Demar's 203 FGA for 226 points to say Kevin Martin, 175 shots for 244 points. Demar shots more and gets you less.

    His shooting % is down and is taking a career high in shots per game with a career high in Usage%. His FTA is basically par for his career (which has always been good but not great). His rebounding hasn't improved (his % has actually declined) and he is still not a play-maker (par for assists).

    He still doesn't fight through screens and is often in the wrong place. He may not get blown by as much, but he gives up way too many open looks (not much need to blow by when you're that wide open), and is bad at almost every other facet of defence. The last Raptor who could only play one form of D (1-on-1 in the post) while being abysmal at every other facet of D was also a high volume, low % shooter, and we were all pretty happy to see him go.
    It helps that Kevin Martin is an excellent 3 point shooter which is why he is getting more points per shot as well. Demar is just starting to incorporate this into his game and is still an on going process. If Demar is not getting to the line more than last season (I'm not looking at stats nor have the time at the point to do so.) He is definatley shooting them at a higher percentage this year and is the raptors best free throw shooter. Kevin Martin also has the ability of having two stars create open shots for him while demar is FORCED to create his own. Rudy can create but does not pass… Lowry dribbles around like a maniac, and we never throw ball in post to create open outside jumpers. So i take that point with a grain of salt. If we have Kevin Love Demars % goes up by at least 5%…

    I do not disagree about fighting through screens and i see it game in and game out. This is why we always struggle against the Kyle Korvers of the world. However something i've seen him and T-Ross do a lot more this year is come help on drives and get into the paint then explode out and contest the 3pt shot. Cant ask for much more in that situation. He is by no means a great defender but i would say he is good - average defender.

  17. #73
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    I see the stats, but you also have to look at his game. I see Demar growing into an all-star. His game is showing a balance and i personally see him making a lot of good decisions. I see him making rotations on defence and i see a passion to win, an impressive work ethic and and want to be in Toronto. Maybe i just like the guy too much but i see him making good decisions when to shoot or drive and i see Demar as a willing passer whose next improvement on his game is to know when to kick the ball out more. Seeing his development and continued growth he's just not a player i would trade unless there is a significant package with involves a top 10 pick this year...
    I see the stats and I see his game as I watch all the games.

    I think we just have a difference of opinions on what is a good player.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #74
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    Tanking blindly is not the only way to succeed.
    For every OKC, there are 2 Bobcats.

    We got to build a winning culture in our organization.
    The problem with our team is

    A) The coach does not know how to plan offensive sets. He is a glorified defensive assistant coach at best and is good with the players, but he is not head coach material. His sets are simplistic at best, and even with good offensive players, he can't get the offense going.
    His sets revolve almost always end up Gay, Derozan isos or Kyle Lowry tough 3s with like 3 seconds on the shot clock. This is why Gay is more ineffecient than ever.
    Why is Amir Johnson shooting 3s and not packing the paint and getting boards?
    We gotta get a new coach to get Gay's trade value up.

    2) Part of the blame goes to the coach, but some has to go to Gay & Derozan. Gay needs to believe in the illusion of the team basketball we have instilled. More touches for JV and less hero ball should make more watchable basketball.

    Tanking won't fix either of these problems. We have to start getting a competent coach who won't take anything from his players. Van Gundy Bros, Hollins and George Karl are interesting coaches who will help setup a culture in Toronto.

    A couple of smart trades for Lowry, Gay will help out.

    Gay and Ross to Washington for Porter, Webster and Vesely would be an interesting trade.
    Or

    Lowry & Gay to LA for Nash and Gasol?
    Just spitballing here
    Last edited by 2kfeen; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 12:18 PM.

  19. #75
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing DeRozan does is score. He had one game against Chicago when the game was already decided where he scored anything remotely efficient.

    His eFG% on year is 43.8% (worse than last season)
    His TS% on the year is 49.5% (worse than last season)

    For perspective the average NBA SG is 50% and 54.9%.

    DeRozan is a guy who is a scorer but not a very efficient one, a poor rebounder especially given his size advantage at SG, a poor creator, and a poor defender. Yes, he is finally showing what he can be but more importantly what he is.
    Here's the thing about Rudy and DeMar: yes, they can CREATE shots in iso situations far better than your average player. This is their reputation and why they both got paid; it's also why they believe so firmly in themselves and why Casey is running the offense this way.

    But, dammit: no, they can NOT MAKE THOSE SHOTS THEY JUST CREATED at anywhere near a satisfactory clip. Basically they can get tough shots off, but they don't hit them! I don't understand why, considering their historically poor percentages (which peak at league average rates at best, but often dip to range between below-average and so-bad-they-become-a-league-wide-talking-point), this isn't more obvious to Casey. He needs to take control of this offense and limit their shot attempts. Period. Not only are these guys not Kevin Durant (two-time league scoring champion) or LeBron James (MVP) - even those guys DON'T TAKE THIS MANY SHOTS while simultaneously racking up so few assists. Honestly, it's crazy to the point of embarrassing that Casey, Gay, and DeRozan are sticking to this whole "we're gunners so we gonna gun" mentality in spit of terrible results.

    Also need to get this off my chest: NONE OF THESE DAMN GUYS CAN RUN A FREAKIN' PICK AND ROLL!!! I have never seen an entire roster of (professional!) guards/perimeter players who are so bad at running one of basketball's most fundamental plays.

    I didn't think this team would be much better than last year, but I didn't think the product on the floor would be this ugly.

  20. #76
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    It helps that Kevin Martin is an excellent 3 point shooter which is why he is getting more points per shot as well. Demar is just starting to incorporate this into his game and is still an on going process. If Demar is not getting to the line more than last season (I'm not looking at stats nor have the time at the point to do so.) He is definatley shooting them at a higher percentage this year and is the raptors best free throw shooter. Kevin Martin also has the ability of having two stars create open shots for him while demar is FORCED to create his own. Rudy can create but does not pass… Lowry dribbles around like a maniac, and we never throw ball in post to create open outside jumpers. So i take that point with a grain of salt. If we have Kevin Love Demars % goes up by at least 5%…

    I do not disagree about fighting through screens and i see it game in and game out. This is why we always struggle against the Kyle Korvers of the world. However something i've seen him and T-Ross do a lot more this year is come help on drives and get into the paint then explode out and contest the 3pt shot. Cant ask for much more in that situation. He is by no means a great defender but i would say he is good - average defender.
    Ok, even without Kevin Martin as a comparison, scoring 226 points on 203 shots, when a basket is worth at least 2 points is terrible. When Demar's value is comprised entirely of his ability to score (since he doesn't rebound, defend or create for others), he has to do it well. So far, he scores a lot only because of high volume shooting. That doesn't make him a good scorer.

    Demar is getting to the line at 5.5 FTA per game. His last 2 seasons, he averaged 5.3 and 5.2, so not really a difference. He is shooting a nice 81.7% from the line, but that is actually down from last year 83.1% but is basically on par with his career average of 81.1%.

  21. #77
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Someone please explain how DeMar DeRozan is better than 2005/06 Mike James:



    Link: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...per_game::none

    What's the point? Many players in the NBA could put up similar (and better) scoring numbers given the no-questions-asked green light that DeMar's been given.

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  23. #78
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    DeMar's only 23! He's got POTENTIAL!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    DeMar's only 23! He's got POTENTIAL!
    Sadly he is now 24.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  25. #80
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Someone please explain how DeMar DeRozan is better than 2005/06 Mike James:



    Link: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...per_game::none

    What's the point? Many players in the NBA could put up similar (and better) scoring numbers given the no-questions-asked green light that DeMar's been given.
    Wow.

    That puts things in perspective.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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