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Thread: Where the REAL tankers at?

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Sadly he is now 24.
    Ok, fine.

    He LOVES TORONTO!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I see the stats and I see his game as I watch all the games.

    I think we just have a difference of opinions on what is a good player.
    I respect that and do think he's a good player. Not great not a star but i do see the likely possibility of that.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    I respect that and do think he's a good player. Not great not a star but i do see the likely possibility of that.
    Can you elaborate on why you think "likely possibility" based on this year? I haven't seen him improve an area and may have regressed in some, so I'm curious as to what you are specifically hanging your hat on.

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    It doesn't matter if we're looking to a high draft pick or a spot in the playoffs, Masai has to make some huge changes. Demar and Rudy - at least one of them must be traded because they're too similar. Trading one of our wings would give a chance to T-Ross, who shoes improvement in defense which we are lack of. Masai has to decide if Lowry is the right PG for the Raptors. And let's not forget about D. Casey... So, like I said, these decisions have to be made no matter what's our future plans and have to be made as soon as possible.
    (Sorry for poor English )

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    I like the idea of DeMar being a 3rd/4th option scorer somewhat like the role that Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala (scoring-wise) is playing for Golden State right now. What I'm not a fan of is him throwing up 18.5 shots per game (the only players that have any business shooting that much are Durant and LeBron imo).

    Luckily for us, DeMar is actually paid like a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team, and at a flat rate as well. Additionally he's only 24 so he could stick with the team through a 2-3 year rebuild and still just be entering his prime years.

    The catch here is bringing in a coach that can implement a proper offensive system that maximizes the strengths of players while minimizing their weaknesses. DeMar should only be taking about 10 FGA per game, and 90% of these should either be corner threes (he's shooting 7-10 from there so far this year, that will obviously drop but he's effective from those spots), short-jumpers (within 15 feet) or layups/dunks.

    All of a sudden you're going to see that FG% creep closer to 50%, and combined with free throw attempts he's putting up 15ppg on 10 shots per game with a mid-high 50s true shooting percentage (ie. a valuable, efficient offensive player that puts pressure on the defense).

    Another thing that isn't being factored in is the fact that taking close to 20 shots per game actually takes a physical toll on a player (people don't realize it but it expends a lot of energy). I think with DD cutting his shots in half essentially, the coach could easily demand more from him in other areas, there's no reason why he couldn't grab 5 boards per game, 3-4 assists and play solid team defense.

    Maybe this isn't the popular opinion, but I don't think DeMar is one of the guys that needs to be traded for us to rebuild. Unlike Gay, I could see him being more impressionable and willing to take a lesser role on a good team. Plus DeMar DeRozan the 3rd/4th option sounds like a pretty damn good player especially with the right coach and system in place.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The only thing DeRozan does is score. He had one game against Chicago when the game was already decided where he scored anything remotely efficient.

    His eFG% on year is 43.8% (worse than last season)
    His TS% on the year is 49.5% (worse than last season)

    For perspective the average NBA SG is 50% and 54.9%.

    DeRozan is a guy who is a scorer but not a very efficient one, a poor rebounder especially given his size advantage at SG, a poor creator, and a poor defender. Yes, he is finally showing what he can be but more importantly what he is.
    LOL - small sample size.....he played 11 games and will likely improve on those numbers (i'm sure his numbers will be closer to his career average). Since you seem to approve of small sample sizes (i know you don't), I guess i should mention the fact that he now shoots over 35% from 3's so far this year. His handles have certainly looked a lot tighter than in the past as well. He seems stronger. Yet we still hear cries of no improvement from what i like to call haters.

    I think if some posters don't want to be called haters, they should acknowledge some of the positives instead of spewing the same stuff over and over again from past years. OR stop cherry picking stats when the eye-test is much more reliable.

    For example.... your post above implies (to me) that Demar actually regressed. However, we know that's simply not true. We see a more confident player than past years. Someone with better handles, more post moves, better range and more creating for his teammates. Obviously, he must continue to improve, but he's getting there. You have your opinion and i respectfully disagree with it.

  8. #87
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    While I agree that DeMar has improved year-by-year (by slowly adding pieces to his game), his overall impact remains the same. Hence why you don't see the "haters" caring much about his improvements.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    I like the idea of DeMar being a 3rd/4th option scorer somewhat like the role that Harrison Barnes or Andre Iguodala (scoring-wise) is playing for Golden State right now. What I'm not a fan of is him throwing up 18.5 shots per game (the only players that have any business shooting that much are Durant and LeBron imo).

    Luckily for us, DeMar is actually paid like a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team, and at a flat rate as well. Additionally he's only 24 so he could stick with the team through a 2-3 year rebuild and still just be entering his prime years.

    The catch here is bringing in a coach that can implement a proper offensive system that maximizes the strengths of players while minimizing their weaknesses. DeMar should only be taking about 10 FGA per game, and 90% of these should either be corner threes (he's shooting 7-10 from there so far this year, that will obviously drop but he's effective from those spots), short-jumpers (within 15 feet) or layups/dunks.

    All of a sudden you're going to see that FG% creep closer to 50%, and combined with free throw attempts he's putting up 15ppg on 10 shots per game with a mid-high 50s true shooting percentage (ie. a valuable, efficient offensive player that puts pressure on the defense).

    Another thing that isn't being factored in is the fact that taking close to 20 shots per game actually takes a physical toll on a player (people don't realize it but it expends a lot of energy). I think with DD cutting his shots in half essentially, the coach could easily demand more from him in other areas, there's no reason why he couldn't grab 5 boards per game, 3-4 assists and play solid team defense.

    Maybe this isn't the popular opinion, but I don't think DeMar is one of the guys that needs to be traded for us to rebuild. Unlike Gay, I could see him being more impressionable and willing to take a lesser role on a good team. Plus DeMar DeRozan the 3rd/4th option sounds like a pretty damn good player especially with the right coach and system in place.
    I would be fine with this type of approach if DeRozan contributed in other areas, but he doesn't. After being one of the primary scorers on the team for the past three seasons, I can't see him being happy taking on a 3rd/4th scoring role. I think he's a little overpaid for that as well. If a wing is going to be such a low scoring option, he better be a star in other ways, such as defense, playing off the ball, rebounding or facilitating; unfortunately DeRozan is dreadful in all of those areas. His biggest problem is that he's proven to be so one-dimensional - scoring - and he just isn't very efficient when it comes to executing that one dimension.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I would be fine with this type of approach if DeRozan contributed in other areas, but he doesn't.
    Guys like Klay Thompson and Barnes were very effective for Golden State in that 3rd/4th option role despite not doing much besides scoring (Barnes rebounds a little better). Plus there's no reason why DD wouldn't be able to rebound closer to his rookie rate (5 per game) if he was taking about the same number of shots per 36 (11 FGA). I see nothing wrong with an efficient 15-5-3 guy as the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender, but hey maybe that's just me.

    After being one of the primary scorers on the team for the past three seasons, I can't see him being happy taking on a 3rd/4th scoring role. I think he's a little overpaid for that as well.
    I don't think DeMar is an idiot also. If you brought in a superstar in the 2014 draft and maybe another star along the line (maybe Val develops into one as well), he'd be able to recognize that he's not the alpha-dog anymore. That also ties into having good coaching and system in place. Andre Iguodala was the alpha dog in Philadelphia, and is now the #3 or #4 guy in Golden State. Bosh was alpha dog in Toronto and is now the #3 guy. Any player that isn't a headcase will accept that role as long as the team is winning.

    And he actually is not overpaid for being a 3rd/4th option on a contender. Here's how many players each current contender has that are paid more than him:

    Brooklyn - 5 (DWill, Lopez, Pierce, Garnett, Johnson)
    Chicago - 4 (Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer)
    Golden State - 4 (Bogut, Lee, Iguodala, Curry) --- with key guys like Klay/Barnes who will make more eventually
    Houston - 2 (Harden, Howard) --- Parsons due to get paid this offseason, Lin/Asik make a touch less
    Indiana - 4 (George, West, Hibbert, Granger) --- take out Granger if you want since he doesn't play, so 3, Hill makes 8M
    LAC - 3 (Paul, Griffin, DeAndre)
    Miami - 3 (Wade, LBJ, Bosh)
    OKC - 3 (Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka)
    San Antonio - 3 (Duncan, Parker, Splitter)

    If a wing is going to be such a low scoring option, he better be a start in other ways, such as defense, playing off the ball, rebounding and facilitating; unfortunately DeRozan is dreadful in all of those areas. His biggest problem is that he's proven to be so one-dimensional - scoring - and he just isn't very efficient when it comes to executing that one dimension.
    DeRozan is actually not a bad defender, his defense is solid within a team system. He's just not a shut down guy. He's not efficient when scoring because he's taking way too many damn shots, that's why I want him taking 10-11 per game. That way he can ensure that the bulk of the shots he takes are actually good ones (going to the rim, open corner 3s or close-range jumpers).

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    Sorry for getting us off topic about Demar i just hate how so few Raps fans see what this guy can do. Anyways the more i see these upcoming draft guys the more i want picks in this draft. Yes we've talked about how hard they are to acquire but i mean if raps got a top 6 pick id be jumping up and down because there is that much talent out there. Picks in the 10-20 range get me excited and say i want that guy on my team. At this point I'm willing to do just about anything to get as many 1st round picks in this draft as possible. i don't care where they are… to late picks could turn into a top 15 pick who knows.

    Question would you trade JV for a top 5 pick? I really don't know my answer but i think I'm leaning yes.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    While I agree that DeMar has improved year-by-year (by slowly adding pieces to his game), his overall impact remains the same. Hence why you don't see the "haters" caring much about his improvements.
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
    Last edited by special1; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 03:41 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
    Yeah, anytime you say you wont call them out, but say their name, you're calling them out.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?
    It's actually statistical, not opinion. Just a couple weeks ago I was a DeMar defender b/c of the eye-test improvements: he's gradually adding some range to his shot, he seems to make better decisions with the ball, he's improved his handle, he seems to be finishing through contact better, and he's working on his post game.

    Then I started looking for evidence - any evidence at all - to back up his "developing game." There isn't any. I'm not just talking about comparing box scores - look for any objective measurement that DeMar's impact has improved, and please tell me about it. (Honestly.)

    I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he now attempts just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more. In spite of his post game and the appearance of finishing through contact, his FG% at the rim has actually dropped a bit from his rookie year.

    He isn't rebounding any better. He isn't moving the ball better. He isn't better defensively. In spite of his "hard worker" reputation (and in certain ways he is a hard worker with a really positive attitude) we don't see any of his hard work on the defensive end where he fights through screens as effectively as a wet noodle.

    Speaking of screens, he can't use them to run a basic pick and roll. At all.

    2005-06 Mike James was much more effective, in virtually every statistical category, than DeMar DeRozan. I really think that if you're defending DeRozan's game at this point, your just a generally optimistic guy who's being positive for positive's sake. Do your homework and you'll almost certainly be disappointed.

    I wish I were wrong.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
    I still like what Lowry brings to this team. Same with Rudy. They're skilled players....they just don't always make smart decisions (but I would suggest coaching has something to do with that). Even in hindsight, I'll gladly take Lowry over Gary Forbes and Steven Adams any day of the week. Same with Rudy over Calderon and Davis (despite his ugly contract, he's still an asset).

    Anyways, you haven't proven me wrong, so I'm not sure what bringing up my opinion on those players accomplishes.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    No matter who you put at the wing positions, its going to be iso ball under Casey's system.
    Change the coach first to someone competent who can instill an offensive system.

    Ross, Alan Anderson, Derozan, Gay have all been playing isos and its been showing this year. Teams were caught off guard last year with the wing attack when Gay was fresh, but smart coaches who make adjustments have eliminated driving to the basket. This leaves us with A) contested Lowry 3 pointer. B) Contested Mid-Range/Fadeaway DD/Gay shot which if we are lucky, is cleaned up by Hansbrough, JV or Johnson.

    Change coach first, get Rudy & DD's trade value up then ship Rudy and Lowry for younger players.

    Its hard to say that Mike James was more effective. DD is playing in a flawed system. He has the tools to score 24 a game (post game, athleticism, mid-range shot) but he has to create his own shot too much.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Yeah, anytime you say you wont call them out, but say their name, you're calling them out.
    Yea....you're right...lol my bad.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL - small sample size.....he played 11 games and will likely improve on those numbers (i'm sure his numbers will be closer to his career average). Since you seem to approve of small sample sizes (i know you don't), I guess i should mention the fact that he now shoots over 35% from 3's so far this year. His handles have certainly looked a lot tighter than in the past as well. He seems stronger. Yet we still hear cries of no improvement from what i like to call haters.

    I think if some posters don't want to be called haters, they should acknowledge some of the positives instead of spewing the same stuff over and over again from past years. OR stop cherry picking stats when the eye-test is much more reliable.

    For example.... your post above implies (to me) that Demar actually regressed. However, we know that's simply not true. We see a more confident player than past years. Someone with better handles, more post moves, better range and more creating for his teammates. Obviously, he must continue to improve, but he's getting there. You have your opinion and i respectfully disagree with it.
    You're right. But the benefit is lost when:
    1) he is shooting 5.8 shots per game above his career and at a career worst 40%.
    2) his eFG% is actually down despite increase in 3pt%
    3) his TS% is like #2.

    I do agree his handles are tighter but that is still not saying much.

    As for cherry picking stats when the eye-test is more reliable, I am going to give the same response I gave to someone earlier: we have a difference of opinion of what is a good basketball player - and that is alright.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    It's actually statistical, not opinion. Just a couple weeks ago I was a DeMar defender b/c of the eye-test improvements: he's gradually adding some range to his shot, he seems to make better decisions with the ball, he's improved his handle, he seems to be finishing through contact better, and he's working on his post game.

    Then I started looking for evidence - any evidence at all - to back up his "developing game." There isn't any. I'm not just talking about comparing box scores - look for any objective measurement that DeMar's impact has improved, and please tell me about it. (Honestly.)

    I actually found evidence that DeMar's game isn't developing in the ways we thought it was. He isn't attacking the basket more - in fact, a higher percentage of his shot attempts are taken away from the basket. He's launching 3's at a much higher rate than ever before - he now attempts just as many 3's as he does shots at the rim. And, in spite of taking far more shots this year than any previous year, his free throw attempts have plateaued. He's shooting more but he isn't getting to the line more. In spite of his post game and the appearance of finishing through contact, his FG% at the rim has actually dropped a bit from his rookie year.

    He isn't rebounding any better. He isn't moving the ball better. He isn't better defensively. In spite of his "hard worker" reputation (and in certain ways he is a hard worker with a really positive attitude) we don't see any of his hard work on the defensive end where he fights through screens as effectively as a wet noodle.

    Speaking of screens, he can't use them to run a basic pick and roll. At all.

    2005-06 Mike James was much more effective, in virtually every statistical category, than DeMar DeRozan. I really think that if you're defending DeRozan's game at this point, your just a generally optimistic guy who's being positive for positive's sake. Do your homework and you'll almost certainly be disappointed.

    I wish I were wrong.
    So 11 games into the season you're looking for "objective measurement of evidence" for his improvement??.....EVEN though you say you can clearly see it with your own eyes??? LOL

    First off i think the sample size is too small. You have to wait a bit longer to make difinitive statements on whether he is better this year compared to last season.

    With regards to the first bold.....do you see what many of us were saying about shooting 3's?? If you want to be a better 3 point shooter you HAVE to shoot more 3's. It's really common sense. This is why you see more 3's than ever before from Demar. Many of us were saying we prefer him attacking the basket, but understand that he needs to be a decent 3 point shooter in order to spread the floor. NOW he is a decent 3 point shooter (so far) and we hear even more criticisms (about him not attacking the rim more - blah blah blah).

    Second bold - Anyone who has watched most of the games this year can see that he still has to earn respect from the officials. MANY times he's getting fouled and not receiving calls. I think if he keeps at it, he'll get more respect from the officials.

    Look - 11 games into the season i'll take my eye-test over whatever useless stats (due to the sample size) that you want to throw out there.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    WOW....thanks for at least admitting that he is improving year-by-year (i'm being a bit sarcastic).

    Whether his overall impact is the same, is entirely based on opinion. However, let's just take a quick walk back down memory lane shall we?? In terms of tanking....aren't we in this position due to a few choices BC made?

    I won't call out Matt52 because he doesn't want to look back at his past opinions, only the future draft. However, I do recall having discussions with you regarding Kyle Lowry and Rudy Gay (whom you were extremely excited to acquire even before BC went and got him at the time). In your own words you said that they were wayyy better players than anyone we have. That they were soooo awesome (i think i'm paraphrasing here). I hate to say i told you so.....BUT Rudy has dissappointed in terms of his court vision, his shooting and creating for his teammates. The same goes for Lowry.

    You guys were on board with giving up our first round pick for Lowry. You guys were on board with trading for Rudy and his ridiculous contract. When it comes to Demar - Why should we listen to anything else you guys have to say??? LOL I'm just saying....

    In spite of our differences of opinions, some of you guys have brought A LOT to these forums. So believe me when i say I mean no disrespect. I learnt that you guys can be wrong.....BIG TIME. No more rash/knee-jerk decisions please!
    Really?

    You don't read my posts then. I've acknowledged many past screw ups on opinions. I've nailed some things too but even a broken clock is right twice a day. You know what the key is though? Cutting your losses when you were/are wrong.

    I recently showed your own history of stellar opinions. Your hypocrisy was shown then I'm and not really in to proving that point again.

    It sounds to me like you wish to be a part of a big circle jerk. I'm not in to circle jerks to be honest. If people share the same opinion, so be it. If they have another one, that is cool - especially when they can back it up with solid reasoning/evidence. But your relentless pursuit to one up myself and other posters who share a difference of opinion is lame - especially when any objective view would show DD is what he is: an inefficient volume scorer. End. Of. Discussion.

    Choose your heroes wisely, kids.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I still like what Lowry brings to this team. Same with Rudy. They're skilled players....they just don't always make smart decisions (but I would suggest coaching has something to do with that). Even in hindsight, I'll gladly take Lowry over Gary Forbes and Steven Adams any day of the week. Same with Rudy over Calderon and Davis (despite his ugly contract, he's still an asset).

    Anyways, you haven't proven me wrong, so I'm not sure what bringing up my opinion on those players accomplishes.
    It goes to show how quickly you change paths.....How quickly we go from one extreme (no flexibility) to wanting to TANK and trade the very same guys you wanted so badly. The very same guys who you critisize and say you don't even want to wait and see. Sorry, if i don't forget that easily. You can jump on the tank bandwagon, BUT you can't pretend that you didn't want this in the first place!

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