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Thread: Colangelo's last 3 moves as Raptors GM

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Default Colangelo's last 3 moves as Raptors GM

    - Trading own 1st round pick for Kyle Lowry
    - Drafting Terrence Ross 8th overall. Passing up on the best player available(Drummond).
    - Trading Ed Davis and Jose Calderon for Rudy Gay

    Yikes.

    Not gonna sound like a hypocrite here and and say, should've done this and that. I say this though. Of those three. The one that i hated the most was the Kyle Lowry trade. HATED it from the start. Because you just dont trade a potential lottery pick for an UNPROVEN PG who has history of being a headcase.

    As for the 2012 draft. I knew the Raps are screwed when Warriors took Barnes 7th overall. I was hoping the Warriors would take Drummond. But once Stern said the name Harrison Barnes. I knew the Raps will take a guard 8th overall. Because it wouldn't make sense if they draft another C. I was hoping the Raps would take Rivers or Lamb. They took Ross.

    But this is a great example why you should always pick the BEST player available.

    Finally, the Rudy Gay trade. Loved that trade last year. But looking back now, geez, i think Colangelo just made that move to save his job. Because Rudy Gay is a big name player. But watching him play right now. He's not that good. Can you say overrated?
    Last edited by TRex; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 04:27 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Colangelo set his career in Toronto on Bargnani.

    If Bargnani was that '13 game guy' they'd be on the Atlanta Hawks program.

    But Bargnani wasn't and the Raptors are going nowhere as currently constructed... shitty.

    I am reserving judgement on Gay until we see what Masai gets for him (if anything). Still think Gay can net you more than Calderon/Davis/2nd round pick - but we'll see.
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Hasn't all this been beat to death already?

    Frankly, I don't think any of those moves are really all that bad.

    #1
    - Had Lowry played up to expectations, it would have been a steal. A lot of that is on DC for handcuffing his natural game and forcing him to try and play like a type of player he isn't.
    - If Lowry is traded, the return needs to be compared to the price; there's still a chance Toronto ends up with something equal or better than what they gave up.

    #2
    - Lots of discussion about this, with pros/cons, since it's a subjective debate about sophomore players in vastly different situations. It's fair to say the jury's still out on this one.
    - I was personally hoping the Raps would draft Drummond and immediately trade down, to be able to take one of the guards (Ross or Lamb) with a later pick in the 1st, while also picking up another asset (ie: 2nd round pick).
    - From what I've heard, it's likely that trading down would have meant neither player was available, so BC did pick who he felt was BPA. BPA is subjective and it's always hard to compare a big to a wing.

    #3
    - I still like the trade. Calderon was expiring. Davis was buried and a year-and-a-half away from becoming a restricted free agent ($4.4M QO). To acquire a near all-star caliber SF (the Raps biggest need for seemingly the past decade) for those 2 players and a 2nd round pick, was still a good deal. Has it worked out as hoped? Nope. 13-game Bargnani never came back, DeRozan plateaued, Lowry was slowed by injury, Valanciunas was slowed by injury, Fields was slowed by injury, Ross looked lost as a rookie and DC seemed to regress as a coach. Yes the contract is big, but he's still a talented player. Don't get me wrong, the salary is a big issue to deal with, but I still think that trade was a bargain.
    - Similar to Lowry, we can't close the book on this deal until we see what Gay becomes for the Raptors. Even if it's just a matter of clearing cap space a year earlier and acquiring a late 1st round pick, it will have been a big net gain for the Raps.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Technically the last thing Bryan did was give DD his extension. That was the reason why I jumped on the Fire BC bandwagon.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Hasn't all this been beat to death already?

    Frankly, I don't think any of those moves are really all that bad.

    #1
    - Had Lowry played up to expectations, it would have been a steal. A lot of that is on DC for handcuffing his natural game and forcing him to try and play like a type of player he isn't.
    - If Lowry is traded, the return needs to be compared to the price; there's still a chance Toronto ends up with something equal or better than what they gave up.

    #2
    - Lots of discussion about this, with pros/cons, since it's a subjective debate about sophomore players in vastly different situations. It's fair to say the jury's still out on this one.
    - I was personally hoping the Raps would draft Drummond and immediately trade down, to be able to take one of the guards (Ross or Lamb) with a later pick in the 1st, while also picking up another asset (ie: 2nd round pick).
    - From what I've heard, it's likely that trading down would have meant neither player was available, so BC did pick who he felt was BPA. BPA is subjective and it's always hard to compare a big to a wing.

    #3
    - I still like the trade. Calderon was expiring. Davis was buried and a year-and-a-half away from becoming a restricted free agent ($4.4M QO). To acquire a near all-star caliber SF (the Raps biggest need for seemingly the past decade) for those 2 players and a 2nd round pick, was still a good deal. Has it worked out as hoped? Nope. 13-game Bargnani never came back, DeRozan plateaued, Lowry was slowed by injury, Valanciunas was slowed by injury, Fields was slowed by injury, Ross looked lost as a rookie and DC seemed to regress as a coach. Yes the contract is big, but he's still a talented player. Don't get me wrong, the salary is a big issue to deal with, but I still think that trade was a bargain.
    - Similar to Lowry, we can't close the book on this deal until we see what Gay becomes for the Raptors. Even if it's just a matter of clearing cap space a year earlier and acquiring a late 1st round pick, it will have been a big net gain for the Raps.
    This is opinion and spin though. YOu could equally say:

    #1:
    -Lowry deal was a pretty big gamble. Yes he was a headcase, but worst of all, he traded an oddly protected lottery pick from the draft one year before the 2014 draft. The pick was basically top 5 and playoff protected. I forget the protection in subsequent years, but likely weaker. If the team makes the playoffs, there's a good chance the Raptors end up trading their 2014 pick away. And because even with Lowry and a playoff run the team would still be in the mediocre tier, they'd risk it being a 2014 lottery pick. For Kyle Lowry. Think about that for a second and how incredibly glad we did end up mediocre last year, and how big of a gamble it really was.

    #2
    This one I tend to lean on management side more than most. Drummond had major concerns leading up to the draft. I also figured the Raps could probably trade down, maybe get 2 picks later in the 1st round even if a team was high enough on someone like Drummond. Or anyone else even. If someone traded us 2 1sts for someone like Rivers, I would've been beyond happy. But to be fair, Ross was a guy I was eyeing with a later 1st, as well as some others. For example, at the time, I would've been pretty happy with something like Ross + Jones (Terrence or PJ3), or Ross + Henson if they were lucky enough.

    #3
    I hated this trade from the moment rumours started. Admittedly they didn't have to give up too much, but judging by how far the team looked from being relevant, adding Rudy Gay was not going to accomplish anything other than possibly saving Colangelo's ass. With Jose's contract expiring, and a mix of young pieces (Jonas, Ross, DeMar, Ed), young vets (Lowry, Amir, Bargs) and spare parts, the team was in a great position to start improving flexibility going forward.
    Instead he trades for a guy who's good, but not THAT good. It screws up our salary situation making it harder to accomplish anything to improve the team for the next season or two, with a team that can't be that good unless Jonas explodes earlier than is realistic to expect.
    We're honestly very lucky Ujiri wanted to come back. Can't imagine any other competent GM taking the job. Bad cap situation, no draft picks last year, assets that could be hard to get good return on.

    I never jumped on a fire Colangelo bandwagon. I was skeptical of every move he made after the 2 big moves of O'Neal and Turkoglu. Those guys were clearly horrible fits for the Bosh Raptors. O'Neal was a gamble that could've panned out. But TUrk? Especially after seeing how well the Raps played with a defensive oriented, glue-guy type player in Marion who didn't need the ball.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Nov 18th, 2013 at 10:35 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Personally, I think Ross was a good pick. I like what I've seen from him so far, and if he works hard on the court I bet he could be a starter and a potent scorer. The key with Ross IMO, is to diversify his offense. He has to do more than just shoot 3's, grow and evolve as an offensive player or he may just be consigned to a shooting role on any team he may play for. His defence is clearly better than DD's. Consistency with effort is key for him, but he has all the tools to be a great guard.

    As for Gay, yeah that was bogus, but like Matt said if MU can get back better than what BC gave up, than it isn't a loss. I do miss Davis tho.

    JV, Amir, Davis, Ross, Acy and maybe even DD would have been a decent young core to grow together. Add in our 1st rounder from last year in lieu of Lowry, plus no doubt with that lineup a good pick this year and we would have had a good thing going forward. Hindsight is 20/20.

    here's to hoping MU can right this sinking ship.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    To quote the magic school bus;

    "We know! We know! Enough Already!"
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I loathed Colangelo but the reality is hindsight is 20/20

    The Lowry and Gay deals seemed really good at the time, tho they were gambles.

    I'm not going to bother arguing Ross over Drummond but that was a Stefanski pick anyways.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I loathed Colangelo but the reality is hindsight is 20/20

    The Lowry and Gay deals seemed really good at the time, tho they were gambles.

    I'm not going to bother arguing Ross over Drummond but that was a Stefanski pick anyways.
    Just because hindsight is 20/20, doesn't forgive a lack of foresight.

    Neither deal had a big chance of pushing the team to another level.

    People were excited about Lowry because it was becoming clear the team needed massive change, it was obvious Jose would soon be gone, and Lowry was a very different kind of PG. In hindsight it wasn't a super-costly trade, giving up a pick in a weak draft. But my issue with it is that it was clearly made with a lack of foresight. He acquired Lowry to help push the team into the playoffs, and let the other team dictate the pick so they would essentially be guaranteed a lottery pick. That means that if the Lowry deal had been as impactful as hoped and the team made the playoffs, then the team would likely have given away their 2014 pick for Lowry.

    And the Gay trade exacerbates that. It was also made to help push the team into the playoffs, which could've helped guarantee that the Lowry trade ends up giving away our 2014 pick. And apart from that, I don't think everyone thought the Gay deal seemed good at the time. THe price wasn't too bad, but that doesn't mean you'll benefit from the acquisition. I didn't think it would have a very positive impact for the team, and I didn't see how it would help build toward a successful, and equally importantly sustainable team.

    As for the Ross thing. I just want to point out that we can't dismiss it as a Stefanski pick. BC was in charge. He had final say on every move. Everything that happened under his watch is his fault, even if he was following other people's advice. He doesn't have to, and anyway, he did choose those people to give him that advice. That's why it's so easy to rag on him.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    that's true enough i guess
    @jerboat

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    Just to set the record straight on the Drummond/Ross debate. Colangelo actually had Drummond rated as a top 5 talent, meaning that he was clearly the best player available, even from BC's own standpoint. So BC consciously passed on Drummond for what he felt were, "mental makeup" issues (read: Drummond scored lower than Bargs on the Caliper Test). The man himself explains the rationale for passing on Drummond:

    "Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didnít have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasnít the right fit for our team and didnít have the right mental makeup."

    http://thebiglead.com/2012/11/16/bry...mental-makeup/

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Just to set the record straight on the Drummond/Ross debate. Colangelo actually had Drummond rated as a top 5 talent, meaning that he was clearly the best player available, even from BC's own standpoint. So BC consciously passed on Drummond for what he felt were, "mental makeup" issues (read: Drummond scored lower than Bargs on the Caliper Test). The man himself explains the rationale for passing on Drummond:

    "Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didn’t have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasn’t the right fit for our team and didn’t have the right mental makeup."

    http://thebiglead.com/2012/11/16/bry...mental-makeup/
    And to be fair, "mental make-up" has derailed plenty of promising careers and can easily negate great athleticism (see: Beasley, Michael). Also, well-managed franchises tend to avoid those kinds of players until they have a firmly established and mature core that can keep a headcase or two in line.

    Everyone knew Drummond was a great athlete - he's already exceeding a lot of expectations. We also knew Ross is a great athlete - he's been underwhelming. How guys develop (or don't develop) after being drafted is virtually impossible to predict. Ironically, one of the only indicators you can point to is "mental make-up."

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Of the 3 moves, only the Gay trade bothered me at the time.

    Lowry was a risk, but it was a good one. Considering that last year we actually had a thread debating whether we had a Top 10 NBA back-court with Lowry and DD. Lowry could have been a steal and 2013 draft was weak, so if you were going to make the deal, that was the time. Plus Lowry's contract was good.

    I liked the Ross pick. My top 2 targets were Lillard and Barnes. Once they were gone, all I knew is that I didn't want Rivers (he had bust written all over him - undersized, volume shooter). Drummond scared me because, frankly, he seemed lazy. Beasley is a great cautionary tale. I expected them to draft Lamb, but I like Ross. Still do.

    The Gay trade was not one I liked from the get go because it was a solitary move. If you acquire Gay, you better have a plan to move DD immediately thereafter. The overlap and the contract terms were just too much for this team. Gay is a better talent than the rest of the Raps, but he isn't necessarily a better player. I felt that then, and I certainly feel that now.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Colangelo set his career in Toronto on Bargnani.

    If Bargnani was that '13 game guy' they'd be on the Atlanta Hawks program.

    But Bargnani wasn't and the Raptors are going nowhere as currently constructed... shitty.

    I am reserving judgement on Gay until we see what Masai gets for him (if anything). Still think Gay can net you more than Calderon/Davis/2nd round pick - but we'll see.
    and this is what makes passing on Drummond so ironic.

    If anyone was a fit beside Bargnani it was likely Drummond. The problem was Drummond didn't 'fit' what Colangelo wanted to (see: thought he needed to see: expected to do) do right then - make the playoffs.

    To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if, had Colangelo drafted Drummond, he'd still have his job right now.



    As for the rest:

    Lowry trade - was just a waste of resources. He gave up a guaranteed lottery pick (plus the ability to trade future first round picks) for something the team never needed - another PG.

    Gay trade - pure 'save my job' desperation move. Personally I blame MLSE for this one. Makes absolutely no sense to tie your franchise down with Gay's contract given where the team was at and where Colangelo was at with the franchise.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Just to set the record straight on the Drummond/Ross debate. Colangelo actually had Drummond rated as a top 5 talent, meaning that he was clearly the best player available, even from BC's own standpoint. So BC consciously passed on Drummond for what he felt were, "mental makeup" issues (read: Drummond scored lower than Bargs on the Caliper Test). The man himself explains the rationale for passing on Drummond:

    "Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didn’t have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasn’t the right fit for our team and didn’t have the right mental makeup."

    http://thebiglead.com/2012/11/16/bry...mental-makeup/
    The moral of the story is: Don't ever, ever, ever rely on the caliper test.....EVER!

    Seriously, what a piece of shit tool.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    #1
    - Had Lowry played up to expectations, it would have been a steal. A lot of that is on DC for handcuffing his natural game and forcing him to try and play like a type of player he isn't.
    - If Lowry is traded, the return needs to be compared to the price; there's still a chance Toronto ends up with something equal or
    Hold on, so I have this right, are you saying that Kyle Lowry, not being able to play the Basketball position of Point Guard, when that is indeed his position, is Dwayne Casey's fault????

    Are you saying he should be allowed to run around playing YMCA ball and getting his numbers instead of actually running the team like he is supposed to????


    This my friends is a prime example of why franchises get away with this sort of thing, and players get away with this sort of thing every year. People just don't know what they are looking at.

    Now I have read you other posts bud, I think you are a smart dude, why do you feel like Lowry is being done wrong? He has a job to do, won't do it, or is simply unable. Its not the coaches fault man.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post

    Everyone knew Drummond was a great athlete - he's already exceeding a lot of expectations. We also knew Ross is a great athlete - he's been underwhelming. How guys develop (or don't develop) after being drafted is virtually impossible to predict. Ironically, one of the only indicators you can point to is "mental make-up."
    Except for one thing. The draft, you're right, is a gamble. So, you have two guys to pick from, one is as big as a house, and as quick as a cat, the other, is as quick as a cat. In my mind, you take size over everything. All things being equal with a gamble, take the gamble that has the most posssible attributes to draw from if it doesn't work out. There is always a use for a large, athletic guy in the NBA, no matter what. Washed out medium sized, medium skilled guards however.....well there are about a million of them around. Drummond was the right call there. Period. BC's fanmous ego wouldn't let him choose a guy that might put a shodow over his "brilliant" JV coup de tat. It was a stupid move, and one that is pretty glaring right now.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Except for one thing. The draft, you're right, is a gamble. So, you have two guys to pick from, one is as big as a house, and as quick as a cat, the other, is as quick as a cat. In my mind, you take size over everything. All things being equal with a gamble, take the gamble that has the most posssible attributes to draw from if it doesn't work out. There is always a use for a large, athletic guy in the NBA, no matter what. Washed out medium sized, medium skilled guards however.....well there are about a million of them around. Drummond was the right call there. Period. BC's fanmous ego wouldn't let him choose a guy that might put a shodow over his "brilliant" JV coup de tat. It was a stupid move, and one that is pretty glaring right now.
    Drummond had the same red flags as Bargnani (different skills but the same flags). After 7 years of watching Bargs, would you really want 2 lethargic clueless bigs? It was a risk. Hindsight doesn't help on draft night.

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    Sorry bud, I was off my ass screaming when they passed on him on draft night. I saw every bit of film on Bargs before they drafter him, he didn't overwhelm me, in fact I thought he was a gamble because he didn't have ANY physical presence. Same was not to be said for Drummond. His abilities on the floor freaked me out. And to be honest, work ethic, on a 17 year old kid (18?) that they were observing.....not hard to understand for a kid that had ALWAYS dominated due to size, guys like that are often able to pick it up when they are surrounded with professionals and similar opponents.

    I am not now, now was I ever using Hindsight on this one, I promise, I desperately wanted that guy. Honestly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Sorry bud, I was off my ass screaming when they passed on him on draft night. I saw every bit of film on Bargs before they drafter him, he didn't overwhelm me, in fact I thought he was a gamble because he didn't have ANY physical presence. Same was not to be said for Drummond. His abilities on the floor freaked me out. And to be honest, work ethic, on a 17 year old kid (18?) that they were observing.....not hard to understand for a kid that had ALWAYS dominated due to size, guys like that are often able to pick it up when they are surrounded with professionals and similar opponents.

    I am not now, now was I ever using Hindsight on this one, I promise, I desperately wanted that guy. Honestly.
    Ok, so that was your opinion, that doesn't mean that they drafted the wrong person based on the information at the time. For every one who wanted to draft Drummond, there was someone who wanted Rivers. For everyone who wanted those two, there were people who didn't. You are using hindsight to justify your opinion, which look accurate now, but that doesn't mean BC made a mistake at the time.

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