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Colangelo's last 3 moves as Raptors GM

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  • #16
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    #1
    - Had Lowry played up to expectations, it would have been a steal. A lot of that is on DC for handcuffing his natural game and forcing him to try and play like a type of player he isn't.
    - If Lowry is traded, the return needs to be compared to the price; there's still a chance Toronto ends up with something equal or
    Hold on, so I have this right, are you saying that Kyle Lowry, not being able to play the Basketball position of Point Guard, when that is indeed his position, is Dwayne Casey's fault????

    Are you saying he should be allowed to run around playing YMCA ball and getting his numbers instead of actually running the team like he is supposed to????


    This my friends is a prime example of why franchises get away with this sort of thing, and players get away with this sort of thing every year. People just don't know what they are looking at.

    Now I have read you other posts bud, I think you are a smart dude, why do you feel like Lowry is being done wrong? He has a job to do, won't do it, or is simply unable. Its not the coaches fault man.

    Comment


    • #17
      S.R. wrote: View Post

      Everyone knew Drummond was a great athlete - he's already exceeding a lot of expectations. We also knew Ross is a great athlete - he's been underwhelming. How guys develop (or don't develop) after being drafted is virtually impossible to predict. Ironically, one of the only indicators you can point to is "mental make-up."
      Except for one thing. The draft, you're right, is a gamble. So, you have two guys to pick from, one is as big as a house, and as quick as a cat, the other, is as quick as a cat. In my mind, you take size over everything. All things being equal with a gamble, take the gamble that has the most posssible attributes to draw from if it doesn't work out. There is always a use for a large, athletic guy in the NBA, no matter what. Washed out medium sized, medium skilled guards however.....well there are about a million of them around. Drummond was the right call there. Period. BC's fanmous ego wouldn't let him choose a guy that might put a shodow over his "brilliant" JV coup de tat. It was a stupid move, and one that is pretty glaring right now.

      Comment


      • #18
        Craig wrote: View Post
        Except for one thing. The draft, you're right, is a gamble. So, you have two guys to pick from, one is as big as a house, and as quick as a cat, the other, is as quick as a cat. In my mind, you take size over everything. All things being equal with a gamble, take the gamble that has the most posssible attributes to draw from if it doesn't work out. There is always a use for a large, athletic guy in the NBA, no matter what. Washed out medium sized, medium skilled guards however.....well there are about a million of them around. Drummond was the right call there. Period. BC's fanmous ego wouldn't let him choose a guy that might put a shodow over his "brilliant" JV coup de tat. It was a stupid move, and one that is pretty glaring right now.
        Drummond had the same red flags as Bargnani (different skills but the same flags). After 7 years of watching Bargs, would you really want 2 lethargic clueless bigs? It was a risk. Hindsight doesn't help on draft night.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #19
          Sorry bud, I was off my ass screaming when they passed on him on draft night. I saw every bit of film on Bargs before they drafter him, he didn't overwhelm me, in fact I thought he was a gamble because he didn't have ANY physical presence. Same was not to be said for Drummond. His abilities on the floor freaked me out. And to be honest, work ethic, on a 17 year old kid (18?) that they were observing.....not hard to understand for a kid that had ALWAYS dominated due to size, guys like that are often able to pick it up when they are surrounded with professionals and similar opponents.

          I am not now, now was I ever using Hindsight on this one, I promise, I desperately wanted that guy. Honestly.

          Comment


          • #20
            Craig wrote: View Post
            Sorry bud, I was off my ass screaming when they passed on him on draft night. I saw every bit of film on Bargs before they drafter him, he didn't overwhelm me, in fact I thought he was a gamble because he didn't have ANY physical presence. Same was not to be said for Drummond. His abilities on the floor freaked me out. And to be honest, work ethic, on a 17 year old kid (18?) that they were observing.....not hard to understand for a kid that had ALWAYS dominated due to size, guys like that are often able to pick it up when they are surrounded with professionals and similar opponents.

            I am not now, now was I ever using Hindsight on this one, I promise, I desperately wanted that guy. Honestly.
            Ok, so that was your opinion, that doesn't mean that they drafted the wrong person based on the information at the time. For every one who wanted to draft Drummond, there was someone who wanted Rivers. For everyone who wanted those two, there were people who didn't. You are using hindsight to justify your opinion, which look accurate now, but that doesn't mean BC made a mistake at the time.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #21
              Well no Axel, I'm not. I am telling the board what I wanted and why, and I was right. I'm not making this up after the fact, and I find it a bit interesting that your are basically saying there is no way I could possibly have made a better choice than The guys that did choose.

              You can say that there is no way to know for sure, and you're right, however you can use some thought and reduce your chances of error quite a bit. Maybe you disagree, and I can respect that, but I also know what is bouncing about in my own head, and I trust those idea's quite a bit.

              I can also say I wanted Aldridge when they grabbed AB.

              Comment


              • #22
                Craig wrote: View Post
                Hold on, so I have this right, are you saying that Kyle Lowry, not being able to play the Basketball position of Point Guard, when that is indeed his position, is Dwayne Casey's fault????

                Are you saying he should be allowed to run around playing YMCA ball and getting his numbers instead of actually running the team like he is supposed to????


                This my friends is a prime example of why franchises get away with this sort of thing, and players get away with this sort of thing every year. People just don't know what they are looking at.

                Now I have read you other posts bud, I think you are a smart dude, why do you feel like Lowry is being done wrong? He has a job to do, won't do it, or is simply unable. Its not the coaches fault man.
                I never said he was a star and I was 50/50 on the trade when it was going down. I said "had Lowry played up to expectations", which to me, means solid defense and bulldog/sparkplug offense. Remember, Calderon was still here when the trade happened, so I was expecting Lowry to begin as the backup and be forced to earn the starting role. I had no delusions of grandeur with Lowry.

                From the start, I have been disappointed with his defense, which was his pre-trade top billing. I thought by bringing lockdown defense to the PG position (Calderon's biggest weakness), he'd provide a fantastic 1-2 punch.

                Love him or hate him, I believe Lowry is at his best when he's able to create off his dribble, using his own scoring and penetration to open up clean looks for his teammates. He'll never be confused with a pass-first floor general type PG, but nobody ever claimed he was or [should have] expected him to be. However, when Calderon was traded and Lowry became the unquestioned starter, there's no doubt that DC mandated him to play more of a facilitator role. To me, that's playing against his greatest strength and not taking advantage of his natural talent/tendencies (a common Raptor failing of trying to force square pegs into round holes).

                I pointed to one aspect that I do believe is a poor decision by DC. I also fully agree that there are some bigger underlying issues with Lowry as a starting PG. I'm definitely not just shifting blame; there's more than enough to go around! I still think the trade was a good one, with final judgment being withheld until Lowry's future is determined.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:57 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  Drummond had the same red flags as Bargnani (different skills but the same flags). After 7 years of watching Bargs, would you really want 2 lethargic clueless bigs? It was a risk. Hindsight doesn't help on draft night.
                  Drummond didn't have the same red flags as Bargnani.

                  The only one comparable red flag was some thought he lacked a motor, but that became just as much a narrative as it was 'truth'. Wouldn't even shock me if that was a smoke screen or disinformation created by teams hoping other teams would avoid him (not exactly a rarity come draft time)

                  Drummond was the right choice for so many reasons - fit (long term anyways), BPA, value for draft position, "can't teach size and can't teach athleticism" (not necessarily good reasons, but he fit the cliche to a tee).

                  Every draft pick comes with a risk. Reaching for Ross was no less risky, yet offered a smaller reward.

                  The only reason to pick Ross over Drummond was in hopes of having a less raw player that could contribute immediately. Given how fate is a cruel mistress, the exact opposite happened.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Craiger wrote: View Post
                    Drummond didn't have the same red flags as Bargnani.

                    The only one comparable red flag was some thought he lacked a motor, but that became just as much a narrative as it was 'truth'. Wouldn't even shock me if that was a smoke screen or disinformation created by teams hoping other teams would avoid him (not exactly a rarity come draft time)

                    Drummond was the right choice for so many reasons - fit (long term anyways), BPA, value for draft position, "can't teach size and can't teach athleticism" (not necessarily good reasons, but he fit the cliche to a tee).

                    Every draft pick comes with a risk. Reaching for Ross was no less risky, yet offered a smaller reward.

                    The only reason to pick Ross over Drummond was in hopes of having a less raw player that could contribute immediately. Given how fate is a cruel mistress, the exact opposite happened.
                    Both were seen as low effort, low motor bigs. Those are big red flags and applied to both players.

                    Since you underlined "some", I think you are underestimating the number of people that had concerns over Drummond. I would say most had concerns, and some were willing to take the risk anyway. His motor was an issue in HS and NCAA. He is a physical specimen, but he didn't play physically at UConn. No one doubted the talent was there, but he had, thus far, only shown enough willingness to be good, not great. He flipped the switch once he arrived, but there were plenty of doubters who had Kwame Brown comparisons for every Dwight Howard comparison.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      Both were seen as low effort, low motor bigs. Those are big red flags and applied to both players.

                      Since you underlined "some", I think you are underestimating the number of people that had concerns over Drummond. I would say most had concerns, and some were willing to take the risk anyway. His motor was an issue in HS and NCAA. He is a physical specimen, but he didn't play physically at UConn. No one doubted the talent was there, but he had, thus far, only shown enough willingness to be good, not great. He flipped the switch once he arrived, but there were plenty of doubters who had Kwame Brown comparisons for every Dwight Howard comparison.
                      and history (atleast to date) has shown us who was right and who is wrong.

                      So why should we discount those who were 'right' by calling it hindsight? Clearly it was foresight by some, and only hindsight for those who were in err.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I pretty much agree here that some of these deals were decent. I didn't mind drafting Terrence Ross over Drummond. I didn't mind bringing in Gay.. we have been searching for a solid SF for years, and Gay is that. I certainly did not expect to see a guy come in and shoot under 40%!

                        I didn't like the Lowry deal. Didn't think a backup point guard with potential as a starter should be worth a first round pick.
                        your pal,
                        ebrian

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Craig wrote: View Post
                          Except for one thing. The draft, you're right, is a gamble. So, you have two guys to pick from, one is as big as a house, and as quick as a cat, the other, is as quick as a cat. In my mind, you take size over everything. All things being equal with a gamble, take the gamble that has the most posssible attributes to draw from if it doesn't work out. There is always a use for a large, athletic guy in the NBA, no matter what. Washed out medium sized, medium skilled guards however.....well there are about a million of them around. Drummond was the right call there. Period. BC's fanmous ego wouldn't let him choose a guy that might put a shodow over his "brilliant" JV coup de tat. It was a stupid move, and one that is pretty glaring right now.
                          This. And really, how much of a gamble is selecting the most talented guy on the board who falls in your lap for a team that is desperately starved for talent? Especially in a weak draft, picking 8th, when the other guys left on the board are Rivers, Lamb, etc... It's not like we were picking top 5 with more pressure to hit a home run. A gamble, if you even want to call it, was worth the risk.

                          The real problem was the BC that was delusional about the existing talent level of that team, believing that it only 'needed' an NBA-ready scorer (which Casey may have convinced him Ross was) to compete for a playoff spot. So, I equally blame Casey for the Ross pick, BC's philosophy of 'drafting for need' and the vast overestimation of the talent level of that team.

                          But then again, Casey's complete ineptness at offense creates so much doubt and inability to assess this correctly. Ross, DD, Gay, etc.. may actually be more offensively talented than we're seeing under Casey, but he's just destroying them and also devaluing them as trade assets in the process.

                          But having said that - time to move on......

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Knowing our luck, had Drummond been selected, Ross would be beasting in Detroit while Drummond rots away on our bench.
                            Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Nov 19, 2013, 01:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              A few points.

                              1.) Drummond was always going to be a gamble, and despite it turning out that he's got the proper NBA attitude and athleticism, he's still very much a project. He'll probably become a great player. He isn't there yet. The Raptors should not be pilloried for passing on him; it was a fair call, because everybody agreed he was boom-or-bust.

                              2.) TRoss was a fair pick; it's not like there's anybody who was picked after him who has become definitively better. Maybe you can make a case for John Henson or Jeremy Lamb, but that's a big maybe. The only serious criticism of the pick is that TRoss probably could have been had with a #12 pick or so and the Raps could have investigated trading down, maybe getting another second-rounder, but again, it's not criminal that they didn't.

                              They chose the cautious route, and there's nothing wrong with the cautious route sometimes.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Craiger wrote: View Post
                                and history (atleast to date) has shown us who was right and who is wrong.

                                So why should we discount those who were 'right' by calling it hindsight? Clearly it was foresight by some, and only hindsight for those who were in err.
                                Where did I discount your opinion as hindsight? All I said to you was that both Drummond and Bargnani had flags about their level of effort and low motors. You thought that only some people felt that, and I countered with that most likely felt it but some were willing to take the risk. I don't see any discount double check there.

                                The only reference to hindsight in this entire thread (to another poster) I've made is to say you can't say BC made a mistake without hindsight because Drummond was seen as a risky pick by many people. Hence the Kwame Brown comparisons that were common used at the time of the draft. People are piling on BC for taking the risk in the Lowry trade but not taking the risk in drafting Drummond. So he was kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm not a BC supporter, but I don't think the Lowry trade or the 2012 draft are the reasons he deserved to be fired. He deserved to be fired for (in rough order): Bargnani extension, trade for Gay, Fields offer sheet amount, Demar extension, roster construction 101, and planning for the future.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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