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  • golden wrote: View Post
    you can lose with honor and win with shame.
    Congrats. You just summed up 125 posts with 1 sentence.

    It comes down to a matter of values and perspectives.

    Comment


    • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      The old school players had more of a personal drive, passion and entrepreneurial spirit within the confines of sports; they wanted to prove they could do it on their own. The new school doesn't seem to value that as much, simply being satisfied with winning. Neither school of thought is 'right' or 'wrong' or 'better'. It's all about personal preference and perspective, especially when trying to compare past and present stars in the NBA.
      Are people still peddling this stuff? It's nonsense. There are so many counter-examples of "old-school" players forcing their way out to get into different situations or chasing rings (e.g. Kareem, Barkley, Drexler, Malone) - the list goes on and on.

      And please, using Bird (played with 3 HOFers), Magic (two or three HOFers) and Jordan (thrid largest media market in NA) is silly. Those guys played in big markets on superteams. Why would they go anywhere? There weren't better situations to be had!

      Of course, people also conveniently ignore any current counter-example (e.g Duncan, Parker and Ginobili in SA, Garnett in Minny, Nowitzki in Dallas, Wade in Miami) cause those don't fit the false narrative.

      Comment


      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
        Congrats. You just summed up 125 posts with 1 sentence.

        It comes down to a matter of values and perspectives.
        So, honour = allowing your GM to build a team around you.

        Shame = planning, along with a couple other athletes, where to sign in your FA.

        That's basically what it comes down to. I don't necessarily disagree, just want to clarify that in professional basketball, this is what it means to be an honourable athlete vs. a shameful athlete?

        Where do you draw the line on Kobe Bryant, who stays with his team but strongarms management re: roster moves? He muscled Shaq out, stayed with the team, quit on them in game 7 of a playoff series because he was pissed with the roster he'd been given, still stayed with the team, got Pau Gasol, won a championship. Was that honour?

        Serious questions here.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • Nilanka wrote: View Post
          Congrats. You just summed up 125 posts with 1 sentence.

          It comes down to a matter of values and perspectives.
          And not just perspectives. There is more than enough evidence to support the belief (that most people have), that Wade, Bosh, Lebron and Riley actually broke the rules precluding tampering. Imagine the massive advantage that Riley would have in clearing cap space, if he actually knew in advance that Lebron and Bosh were likely coming to Miami? Sure looks like that was the case.

          http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5371956

          "....A comment made by Bosh at a welcoming rally Friday night in Miami has only fueled accusations that the three stars began plotting their joint move to South Florida well before they were technically allowed to. Bosh initially told the assembled crowd that the trio had been talking about landing with the same team for "months" before catching himself and amending that statement to "days.

          Wade acknowledged Friday night that what he termed as "the possibility" that all three stars could someday wind up on the same team was established "a long time ago."

          The problem is that David Stern LOVES the superteams concept and the media attention it drives. I remember after 'The Decision', Stern was asked about it and he was gloating about how much FREE primetime network advertising Lebron got for the NBA in the middle of summer, no less. He was over the moon about that, so no way he was going to punish the Heat for breaking the rules. Again, money is the problem here.

          Comment


          • slaw wrote: View Post
            Are people still peddling this stuff? It's nonsense. There are so many counter-examples of "old-school" players forcing their way out to get into different situations or chasing rings (e.g. Kareem, Barkley, Drexler, Malone) - the list goes on and on.

            And please, using Bird (played with 3 HOFers), Magic (two or three HOFers) and Jordan (thrid largest media market in NA) is silly. Those guys played in big markets on superteams. Why would they go anywhere? There weren't better situations to be had!

            Of course, people also conveniently ignore any current counter-example (e.g Duncan, Parker and Ginobili in SA, Garnett in Minny, Nowitzki in Dallas, Wade in Miami) cause those don't fit the false narrative.
            Couldn't agree more. Undecided on my thoughts on some of this, but a lot of the discussion is a really superficial stereotyping of eras, esp. re: "the good old days" vs. "kids these days."

            "I guess these young'uns just don't get it" is basically what I read just a couple posts up.

            There are plenty of historical quotes going right back to ancient Greece (literally literally) with old farts saying essentially the exact same thing about kids these days, how the ol' days were much better, and how the world, language, culture, values, etc. are all going to pot.

            There's something very human in both the aging process and how we remember things (or don't remember things well) that happened decades ago.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

            Comment


            • S.R. wrote: View Post
              It's not that at all, though. Magic and Bird played with HoFers - doesn't that diminish their accomplishment, according to this reasoning? The only real difference between their teams and the Heat is how the teams were assembled. The quality of the supporting cast is similar (I'd argue Bird and Magic had much better teammates than LeBron does now. Does that diminsh their accomplishment?).

              Your bold quote is elevating the individual too much in a team sport, imho. You're buying into the corporate player=idol imaging and an unhelpful projection of what it means to be a basketball "superstar." As much as Bird, Magic, and Jordan talk like you when criticizing The Decision, they also talk readily about how they had to learn to play with a team and not as an individual (especially Jordan), about how important their teammates and coaches were. Those guys couldn't win championships without their HoF teammates - end of story. They were great players on great teams.

              Again, the only difference here is how the team was assembled. This other stuff is all moot.
              The bold is the entire point. The Heat were formed by 3 stars colluding to form a contender. The other teams discussed were results of good management. Is it Bird's fault that the Celtics had better coaching/management than LeBron's Cavs?

              One thing I also wonder, does McHale etc become Hall of Famers without winning beside Bird? Bird was the unquestioned best player on the team, so if he left, does McHale still have a successful enough career to get in the HoF?
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • Axel wrote: View Post
                The bold is the entire point. The Heat were formed by 3 stars colluding to form a contender. The other teams discussed were results of good management. Is it Bird's fault that the Celtics had better coaching/management than LeBron's Cavs?

                One thing I also wonder, does McHale etc become Hall of Famers without winning beside Bird? Bird was the unquestioned best player on the team, so if he left, does McHale still have a successful enough career to get in the HoF?
                This is really interesting and under reported - did the Heat collude and, if so, what does that mean for LeBron's legacy?
                Last edited by S.R.; Thu Nov 21, 2013, 11:47 AM.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                Comment


                • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  Congrats. You just summed up 125 posts with 1 sentence.

                  It comes down to a matter of values and perspectives.
                  S.R. wrote: View Post
                  So, honour = allowing your GM to build a team around you.

                  Shame = planning, along with a couple other athletes, where to sign in your FA.

                  That's basically what it comes down to. I don't necessarily disagree, just want to clarify that in professional basketball, this is what it means to be an honourable athlete vs. a shameful athlete?

                  Where do you draw the line on Kobe Bryant, who stays with his team but strongarms management re: roster moves? He muscled Shaq out, stayed with the team, quit on them in game 7 of a playoff series because he was pissed with the roster he'd been given, still stayed with the team, got Pau Gasol, won a championship. Was that honour?

                  Serious questions here.
                  It's never that black and white. Honour and shame are defined differently by every single person on this forum, yet here we are arguing as if to come to some sort of final, agreed upon answer.

                  But to answer your questions, colluding to form a superteam = shame. Strong-arming your own team to get your way = shame.

                  Like the examples slaw pointed out, Duncan staying in San Antonio = honor. Dirk staying in Dallas = honor.

                  Again, this is nothing but my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • S.R. wrote: View Post
                    This is really interesting and under reported - did the Heat collude and, if so, what does that mean for LeBron's legacy?
                    The players admitted to discussing it while playing for Team USA. So while management wasn't involved (violating any rules), the players did "collude" but without the restriction on doing so.

                    Brandon wrote:
                    You're using the terms "colluding" and "good management" as spin. Miami had to clear the books of the flotsam that was on the roster before they could sign all 3 guys. Is this not good management? Is Riley's recruiting also not good management?
                    Spin? Not sure how that is spin. Riley actively rolled the dice on free agency and managed his team accordingly, I'm fairly confident he knew all about Wade's talked with LBJ and Bosh.

                    That said, no one is talking about Riley in a negative way. The negativity is on LeBron for taking the easy way to win a Championship. The management that wasn't good in this case was Cleveland's. Although they were a successful team (Finals trip, tops in the conference), so that is subjective.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                    Comment


                    • Axel wrote: View Post
                      The bold is the entire point. The Heat were formed by 3 stars colluding to form a contender. The other teams discussed were results of good management. Is it Bird's fault that the Celtics had better coaching/management than LeBron's Cavs?

                      One thing I also wonder, does McHale etc become Hall of Famers without winning beside Bird? Bird was the unquestioned best player on the team, so if he left, does McHale still have a successful enough career to get in the HoF?
                      Great points, all. Again, people just looking at the result - he played with 2 HoFs. Did Bird make players around him better? Did he elevate some guys to HoF levels? With Lebron you can certainly say that there is no way that Mo Williams makes an all-star game without LBJ. Conversely, people have this impression that the Cavs sucked bad before Lebron left. You're talking about a team that had back-to-back 60 win seasons. This, if anything, speaks to the greatness of Lebron, with or without a championship belt.

                      Comment


                      • I don't think you can knock Lebron about the "way" he won a title after watching him play the last few seasons.

                        I know the common narrative was that he was taking the easy way out or even "cheating" the apparently unwritten rules of winning a championship by going to Miami, but do people still feel that way now? He's dragged a hobbled Wade and an often injured or struggling Bosh through the playoffs the last two years and continues to get better. Any talk of him being a choke artist or needing Wade to take the pressure off him in the game's most important moments should be silenced by now. He certainly hasn't piggy backed anyone on his way to two Larry O'Brien trophies.

                        Comment


                        • I just hate the bias that people show when discussing this issue.

                          When Miami was playing Indiana, everyone was saying Wade was done and a shell of his former self. But when it comes to the LeBron leaving Cleveland issue, he took the easy way out to join the 2nd best player in the league.

                          Yet people actually agree with Durant that Wade isn't even a top 10 player anymore, and Bosh isn't even a star.

                          Comment


                          • Brandon wrote:
                            Spin means that you're using the word "colluding", which carries an inherently negative connotation, and applying it to something that you want people to see in a negative way. Collusion voids legal agreements, and usually means fraud, so it's a serious charge.

                            Why was Cleveland's management "not good"? The championships Lebron has won don't seem to me to have been very "easy", given that they lost the first time to Dallas. Are they sweeping every series with Lebron mostly on the bench cheerleading, or how do you define "easy"?
                            What word would you prefer I use? Scheme? Conspire? Plot? At the end of the day, they discussed and semi-agreed to a secret plan, while stringing along their current team's. If Bosh had been honest with the Raptors, he could have told them well in advance of his desire to play with Wade in Miami and the Raps would have made a trade. The secrecy of their plan is a big part of why it was so damaging to their former teams.

                            I think Cleveland did a fairly good job of their management, but many of the posters in this thread and supporters of LeBron's decision to leave (not The Decision spectacle) complain that Cleveland didn't give him a good enough supporting cast to win. Please re-read this entire thread if you want specific examples.

                            Miami lost to Dallas because Dallas was the better team and Dirk played insanely well. Miami was a cast of individuals that year. They've since learned to play as a team and have achieved greater success. When they struggle (as they did at the start of this season) it is because they fall back into their old habits (Wade said this earlier this year, that sometimes he and LBJ need to remember what they've learned since losing to Dirk)
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • Nosike wrote: View Post
                              I just hate the bias that people show when discussing this issue.

                              When Miami was playing Indiana, everyone was saying Wade was done and a shell of his former self. But when it comes to the LeBron leaving Cleveland issue, he took the easy way out to join the 2nd best player in the league.

                              Yet people actually agree with Durant that Wade isn't even a top 10 player anymore, and Bosh isn't even a star.
                              Timelines. When LeBron left Cleveland for Miami, Wade was a top 10 player.

                              Last year, Wade is a different player than he was.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • Fully wrote: View Post
                                I don't think you can knock Lebron about the "way" he won a title after watching him play the last few seasons.

                                I know the common narrative was that he was taking the easy way out or even "cheating" the apparently unwritten rules of winning a championship by going to Miami, but do people still feel that way now? He's dragged a hobbled Wade and an often injured or struggling Bosh through the playoffs the last two years and continues to get better. Any talk of him being a choke artist or needing Wade to take the pressure off him in the game's most important moments should be silenced by now. He certainly hasn't piggy backed anyone on his way to two Larry O'Brien trophies.
                                LeBron's continued development and his ability to apparently improve whatever facet of his game he chooses to focus on is really incredible.

                                I also think his lack of "killer instinct" is overstated. He's not MJ, but he's just as competitive as Magic. Magic is a much better comparison for the type of player he is anyway.

                                Miami has beaten plenty of tough teams and defense-first teams and LeBron is never, ever intimidated by the opposition or even thrown off his game in any way. He does what he wants, and he wins, no matter who he's playing against. That's tough/competitive enough for me.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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