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Thread: Masai on The Fan - November 19

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I completely agree with you about Casey, but I don't think it makes a ton of sense to fire him now. There's a good chance that next year's roster will look entirely different than this year's, so I would wait until the revised roster is starting to take shape before hiring the new coach (ie: in the offseason, after the draft and into free agency). That ensures that the GM, coach and roster are all on the same page about where the team is at, where it's heading and what the priorities are for the upcoming season.

    From the time MU was hired, I figured DC was a lame duck coach. I also have no doubt that MU has already begun assembling a short-list of replacement coaches to approach for interviews during the offseason.
    I think there is merit to firing him. Toronto is playing awful basketball. Like, worse than high school teams I've seen in terms of offensive sets (dead serious here), and a total lack of accountability on D. I don't think it's wrong to say this brand of basketball is not particularly good for any of our players, and you definitely don't want to negatively impact the development of guys like Jonas and Ross, regardless of what one might think of their ceilings. You want your players to not have damage done to their confidence, and to learn to play the right way. IMO Casey is failing miserably in those respects. It's fine with me if they just promote Bayno or Nurse, and yes, I realize there's no guarantee they're better, but they can't be worse. I'd take just about anything over Casey. Heck, from a subs and timeout perspective, I'd trust the simulated decisions on a video game over Casey.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I completely agree with you about Casey, but I don't think it makes a ton of sense to fire him now. There's a good chance that next year's roster will look entirely different than this year's, so I would wait until the revised roster is starting to take shape before hiring the new coach (ie: in the offseason, after the draft and into free agency). That ensures that the GM, coach and roster are all on the same page about where the team is at, where it's heading and what the priorities are for the upcoming season.

    From the time MU was hired, I figured DC was a lame duck coach. I also have no doubt that MU has already begun assembling a short-list of replacement coaches to approach for interviews during the offseason.
    Wouldn't it be much better to hire a new coach and get his input on the roster decisions? He will, after all, be the one coaching these guys for the next 4+ years. I think that would make it even more likely for everyone to be on the same page since they all made the decisions together.

    I agree Casey is a lame duck coach, I'd just rather have a lame duck coach who isn't fighting for his job at the expense of our young players development (see JV). Just promote one of the assistants, tell him to focus on player development, and that his assistant coach job is safe and he'll be an assistant for whoever the new head coach is next season. Both Nurse and Bayno were Ujiri hires, not Casey, so I'd assume they will remain whenever a new Coach is brought in.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Sarcasm noted...but...

    NYK is normally a target to deal with and unload. Alas, their cupboard is bare...I mean really bare. Ironically, it has been MU who has helped with the depletion since his Nugget days. Would you do a Shumpert (they are trying to trade him) and ballast for DD? I waver.
    I think we could do a lot better than that for Derozan. He'll bring a 1st round pick back for sure (freaking Bargs did!), so I wouldn't want to trade him to a team without any 1st round picks.

    I like Shump but I think we could do a lot better when it comes to rebuilding.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    First bold and second bold are kinda contradictory no? They haven't figured out how to use him, they're just using him the right amount and at better instances. Sounds exactly like they figured out how to use him. I know it's hard to give NY credit since it was painfully obvious to all of us Raptors fans that the correct way to use him is the way NY is, but that again just goes to show how bad a coach Casey is. Even Mr. Potato Head Mike Woodson figured out how to use Bargs, and he's a pretty terrible coach himself.
    I realize it sounds weird, but I meant that situationally he's not being used in different spots. He's being asked to do the same things he was doing in Toronto, just in a better spot in terms of pecking order. This includes when they iso him, as it's totally different to iso Bargs when Melo is the on the floor and a better player, as opposed to an iso where DeMar is the 2nd best player on the floor. Toronto did not even have that kind of option. So I'm not sure you can blame the coach. And I'm not sure you can say they've figured out "how" to use him. More like "when", and that their roster just gives them a better natural fit.

    It's just when I hear "how", I hear it like he's being used in a vastly different way. Like changing him from a pick'n'pop player to a pick'n'roll player, to give an example. This is not the case. Bargs is still taking largely the same shots he was taking in Toronto, there's just less focus on him from the opposing D, and less responsibility on him to carry the whole load.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    First bold and second bold are kinda contradictory no? They haven't figured out how to use him, they're just using him the right amount and at better instances. Sounds exactly like they figured out how to use him. I know it's hard to give NY credit since it was painfully obvious to all of us Raptors fans that the correct way to use him is the way NY is, but that again just goes to show how bad a coach Casey is. Even Mr. Potato Head Mike Woodson figured out how to use Bargs, and he's a pretty terrible coach himself.
    I'll let wmcj answer for himself..and while you have a point re time usage I think wmcj may have been referring to positional play and responsibilities. He was started out as a C and surprisingly didnt do too badly considering that was not his personal preferred position. Last night however he was replaced by KMart at C and reverted back to PF. The numbers have fallen back but its one game so who knows. The point though is I dont know that Woody has really figured Bargs out just yet. imo the problem has always been a commitment to tough balling for a 7 fter in a sustained way with AB. His talent is unquestioned.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    If anything, that is an indictment on how Bargs was used while in Toronto. He is still an absolute sieve on defense but NY has figured out how to effectively use Bargs on offense.
    They wouldn't have figured out how to use him effectively if Tyson Chandler had been healthy this entire time.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    First bold and second bold are kinda contradictory no? They haven't figured out how to use him, they're just using him the right amount and at better instances. Sounds exactly like they figured out how to use him.I know it's hard to give NY credit since it was painfully obvious to all of us Raptors fans that the correct way to use him is the way NY is, but that again just goes to show how bad a coach Casey is. Even Mr. Potato Head Mike Woodson figured out how to use Bargs, and he's a pretty terrible coach himself.
    No one's figured anything out there, and no one didn't figure out anything here. The Knicks have Melo. This means Bargs gets open shots. End of story.

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  9. #48
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    All I got was a lot of "aahs", "ers" and "nos/maybes". My crystal ball remains very murky. Like one of the pundits said "the gms around the league dont even know his intentions" (paraphrase)....and he talks to them all the time.

    Has anyone read/seen an interview with Dan Tolzman (director of scouting) who came over with MU from Denver? Please provide a link if available. I have personally seen nothing....which speaks to the tight control Ujiri has on Raptor information.
    Thankfully unlike BC.

  10. #49
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Wouldn't it be much better to hire a new coach and get his input on the roster decisions? He will, after all, be the one coaching these guys for the next 4+ years. I think that would make it even more likely for everyone to be on the same page since they all made the decisions together.

    I agree Casey is a lame duck coach, I'd just rather have a lame duck coach who isn't fighting for his job at the expense of our young players development (see JV). Just promote one of the assistants, tell him to focus on player development, and that his assistant coach job is safe and he'll be an assistant for whoever the new head coach is next season. Both Nurse and Bayno were Ujiri hires, not Casey, so I'd assume they will remain whenever a new Coach is brought in.
    I think JV and Ross are both earning more playing time with their play, so I'd be surprised if Casey doesn't start playing them more. I could also see MU talk to Casey and request they play more, if he's not satisfied with their court time. Also, if MU blows the team up, then it's likely that Casey would essentially be forced to play them more, especially if it becomes apparent that the team is no longer playing for this year.

    Personally, I would have fired Casey in the offseason, but I totally understand MU coming in and playing the 'wait and see' card with both the roster and coach. He very well could fire Casey in the 2nd half, as part of a massive overhaul of the team. I just don't think it really matters all that much in the grand scheme of things whether that happens during the season or offseason.

  11. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Sarcasm noted...but...

    NYK is normally a target to deal with and unload. Alas, their cupboard is bare...I mean really bare. Ironically, it has been MU who has helped with the depletion since his Nugget days. Would you do a Shumpert (they are trying to trade him) and ballast for DD? I waver.
    Like Primer said above, I think DeRozan can net us more than Shumpert and parts. He's playing pretty well right now. I'm sure the league has noticed.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  12. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Like Primer said above, I think DeRozan can net us more than Shumpert and parts. He's playing pretty well right now. I'm sure the league has noticed.
    Shumpert would be a low ball offer for DeMar. Would you take a chance on Tyreke Evans? His numbers don't look that great right now, but I wonder if that has more to do with adjusting to coming off the bench.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Shumpert would be a low ball offer for DeMar. Would you take a chance on Tyreke Evans? His numbers don't look that great right now, but I wonder if that has more to do with adjusting to coming off the bench.
    Personally, I'd stay away from Tyreke at all costs. He's neither a point guard, or a shooting guard, or a small forward....

    ...but he is a malcontent.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Personally, I'd stay away from Tyreke at all costs. He's neither a point guard, or a shooting guard, or a small forward....

    ...but he is a malcontent.
    Agreed. He can't shoot and is a ball dominant player, so how is that an improvement from DD or Gay?

  16. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Shumpert would be a low ball offer for DeMar. Would you take a chance on Tyreke Evans? His numbers don't look that great right now, but I wonder if that has more to do with adjusting to coming off the bench.
    Tyreke Evans? I thought we were trying to get better at SG, not worse. We'd just be adding an extra $3M per year of salary for an inferior player. No thanks.
    I'd expect Demar to fetch something more like Schroeder and Millsap from ATL (just to throw something out there).

  17. #55
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Tyreke Evans? I thought we were trying to get better at SG, not worse. We'd just be adding an extra $3M per year of salary for an inferior player. No thanks.
    I'd expect Demar to fetch something more like Schroeder and Millsap from ATL (just to throw something out there).
    Keep dreaming. No way we'd get a haul like that.

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  19. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Wouldn't it be much better to hire a new coach and get his input on the roster decisions? He will, after all, be the one coaching these guys for the next 4+ years. I think that would make it even more likely for everyone to be on the same page since they all made the decisions together.
    I think we all agree that this team is going to get blown up this season at some point in time. But barring a miracle, I think a lot of the moves made this season will be intermediate steps towards improving the team. I don't think, for example, we are going to be able to trade Rudy Gay or Kyle Lowry for players who will be with us for the next 4+ years.

    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I agree Casey is a lame duck coach, I'd just rather have a lame duck coach who isn't fighting for his job at the expense of our young players development (see JV). Just promote one of the assistants, tell him to focus on player development, and that his assistant coach job is safe and he'll be an assistant for whoever the new head coach is next season. Both Nurse and Bayno were Ujiri hires, not Casey, so I'd assume they will remain whenever a new Coach is brought in.
    I don't think Casey is fighting for his job. I think he's just coaching the way he think is right, which is unfortunate... but even still, I think think that he's a guy that will get snatched up immediately when we don't re-sign him. Maybe not as a head coach, but as an assistant, teams will gladly take him on (assuming he is willing to go somewhere as an AC).

    I still see a guy that has a few months left and should be left alone until his contract is finished. And I think the upper brass have told him as much. It doesn't make sense to me to fire this guy (and continue to pay him) and then promote another guy to act as a temporary stop-gap. Btw, this is not a question of whether or not he deserves to be fired, but rather whether it makes sense for the franchise long term.
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  20. #57
    Raptors Republic Starter japetas's Avatar
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    Monroe + Vilanueva to DeRozan + Gray
    You can change Vilanueva to Stuckey or/and Gray to Hansbrough (after DEC 15th)

    C Jonas Valanciunas
    PF Greg Monroe
    SF Rudy Gay
    SG Terrence Ross
    PG Kyle Lowry

    And this is not necessarily the final lineup before trade deadline But this trade would definitely hurt our tanking ratio.
    Last edited by japetas; Thu Nov 21st, 2013 at 05:30 PM.
    (Sorry for poor English )

  21. #58
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote japetas wrote: View Post
    Monroe + Vilanueva to DeRozan + Gray
    You can change Vilanueva to Stuckey or/and Gray to Hansbrough (after DEC 15th)

    C Jonas Valanciunas
    PF Greg Monroe
    SF Rudy Gay
    SG Terrence Ross
    PG Kyle Lowry

    And this is not necessarily the final lineup before trade deadline But this trade would definitely hurt our tanking ratio.
    I am really not a big Greg Monroe fan. Not a guy I really want to add to the team, and if he was, I would hope it's not as a building block, but as a trade asset who's time with the Raps has an expiring date.

    To understand why, read this article, especially from the quoted passage onwards:
    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...etroit-pistons

    Monroe is a very good offensive player, but he's a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker. He's a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor — a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices....

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I am really not a big Greg Monroe fan. Not a guy I really want to add to the team, and if he was, I would hope it's not as a building block, but as a trade asset who's time with the Raps has an expiring date.

    To understand why, read this article, especially from the quoted passage onwards:
    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...etroit-pistons
    Monroe is a very good offensive player, but he's a glaring liability on defense in a league getting smaller and quicker. He's a turnstile trying to contain the pick-and-roll out on the floor — a mess of bad footwork, poor timing, lazy reaches, and bad choices....


    if the above are what the weaknesses of a player... then we shud probably make a three team trade where we aquire indiana's player development staffs and the the player with those weakneses...

    simply put... to correct those kinds of weaknesses should be what the objectives of player development staffs

    and clearly... the Raptors suck in that department


    HOWEVER, personally, I STILL WOULDNT like Greg Monroe on THIS team
    Last edited by ball4life; Thu Nov 21st, 2013 at 07:04 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    I thought there were a couple comments that MU made on the fan 590 on Tuesday that were rather revealing.

    First of all, he discussed the ways in which a team can be built, through the draft or through trades/free agency.
    He said specifically that he thought building through the draft was the better way to go about it.

    The other revealing comment he made, was in a discussion regarding the term tanking itself. He essentially said that referring to draft-oriented team building as tanking was erroneous, because it is a valid approach to team construction, taking a step back to take two steps forward.

    I think these comments are calculated. While it doesn't actually reveal a plan, by both softening the language used to describe tanking and emphasizing draft-oriented team building as a valid approach, he can influence the way fans think about the topic.

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