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Thread: The curse of the Titanic... DIVISION!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Default The curse of the Titanic... DIVISION!

    Here's the current state of the Titanic Divison

    Philadelphia 5 7 0.417
    Toronto 4 7 0.364
    Boston 4 8 0.333
    New York 3 7 0.300
    Brooklyn 3 7 0.300

    The best record which belongs to Philly would put them

    3rd in the Central Division
    4th in the Southeast Division
    4th in the Northwest Division
    4th (Tied) in the Pacific Division
    5th in the Southwest Division

    The raps are currently .5 games back of Philly which means a win tonight would make us division leaders. For those of you who don't know if you win your division you are automatically guaranteed a top 4 seed in the playoffs and home court advantage in the first round.

    IS it possible for the Raps to win the division, yes! Should we confuse winning the division with being a contender if our actual record would leave us as an 7th or 8th seed? NO!

    I meant to write more but my wife is getting mad and I have to go... Will be back later to rejoin the discuss and or elaborate on my thoughts!
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    IS it possible for the Raps to win the division, yes! Should we confuse winning the division with being a contender if our actual record would leave us as an 7th or 8th seed? NO!
    Answering "YES!" to that question in 2007 is what ultimately caused BC to lose his job and turn this franchise into a capped-out treadmill. Those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it!

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Plus, New York and Brookly should pickup the pace as the season progresses.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Plus, New York and Brookly should pickup the pace as the season progresses.
    There really isn't any proof to this.

    New York is a mess with Melo having to much on his shoulders to go all season. The cast of characters around him are all playing as individuals. There record could shape up to what the raptors started last season and that's one hell of a climb. Your looking at a possible 4-12 if you look at their next few games.

    Brooklyn are not playing well at all. How do you lay on this on Jason Kidd? maybe some, but how is an inexperianced coach gonna turn this around.

    Compared to what we have, we have a bunch of talent who finally can play some defense who some have been together for at least a 2-3 years.

    Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.

    I understand the hunger for going into the draft this year but are we gonna out worse Utah, Sac, Bucks, Philly, Suns, etc when they are in in the same position to tank better than us. If you chase this rabbit, you can be left with no team to build around at 7-13 pick. We are just not built for that strategy this year.
    Last edited by imaginelino; Thu Nov 21st, 2013 at 10:59 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.
    I was stating an opinion. The only "proof" I have of the Knicks and Nets playing well, is last year. Do you honestly think they'll be the 2 worst teams in the Atlantic by season's end? With management teams who are desperately in win-now mode?

    As for the Raptors picking it up, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been waiting for 6 years.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I was stating an opinion. The only "proof" I have of the Knicks and Nets playing well, is last year. Do you honestly think they'll be the 2 worst teams in the Atlantic by season's end? With management teams who are desperately in win-now mode?

    As for the Raptors picking it up, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been waiting for 6 years.
    I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

    I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

    I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)
    Knicks played good D last night against the Pacers (even though they lost in OT, it was a big improvement) which has been a huge issue all season, but especially since they lost Tyson Chandler.

    Nets have too many talented players to not play better. They won't contend for a title this year, but they are certainly going to be better than a lottery pick.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    I know its an opnion but what reason is there that you think they will pick it up? Just because of expectations put on them?

    I've been waiting as long as you as well and I agree that they haven't assured me anything other than setting up for another season of heartbreak. (possibly)
    Knicks and Nets both have more talent, and big game experience than the Raptors. That gives them a serious leg up.

    The Nets have a very different roster this year, but the Knicks competed with basically the same core last year. Does Bargnani have that much of a negative affect? We'll see.

    My initial point was that we shouldn't expect this division to be a cake-walk. It's still early. The Knicks and Nets have enough firepower to climb out of an early hole.

    The Raptors, on the other hand, have a GM who's not sure whether to rip the roster to shreds.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote imaginelino wrote: View Post
    There really isn't any proof to this.

    New York is a mess with Melo having to much on his shoulders to go all season. The cast of characters around him are all playing as individuals. There record could shape up to what the raptors started last season and that's one hell of a climb. Your looking at a possible 4-12 if you look at their next few games.

    Brooklyn are not playing well at all. How do you lay on this on Jason Kidd? maybe some, but how is an inexperianced coach gonna turn this around.

    Compared to what we have, we have a bunch of talent who finally can play some defense who some have been together for at least a 2-3 years.

    Toronto clearly looks to be the better team. Who says we can't also pick it up as the season goes. Our schedule is also supposed to get easier.
    If the season does play out this way (and it could), this team would be eerily similar to Toronto's only other division winning team. The division was extremely weak that year, but other teams were making moves for long term growth. The Raps got spanked in the first round and promptly fell well behind the pace in the East in subsequent seasons. Colangelo spent the rest of his tenure trying to patch up that roster to re-gain some success. It was extremely short-sighted to ignore the context of that division title, and it would be even more ridiculous to do it again.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    If the season does play out this way (and it could), this team would be eerily similar to Toronto's only other division winning team. The division was extremely weak that year, but other teams were making moves for long term growth. The Raps got spanked in the first round and promptly fell well behind the pace in the East in subsequent seasons. Colangelo spent the rest of his tenure trying to patch up that roster to re-gain some success. It was extremely short-sighted to ignore the context of that division title, and it would be even more ridiculous to do it again.
    +1 billion. I've been thinking about this since the win last night.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    If we have chance at four home playoffs games I'm all for it! If we end having like a 5+ game(which is actually possible) lead on our devision by Christmas I don't see how Massai will blow this team up. The fan base will erupt! Also it's a business after all. Those Playoffs games that's a lot of revenue! At the end of the it always comes down to $$$


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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    If we have chance at four home playoffs games I'm all for it! If we end having like a 5+ game(which is actually possible) lead on our devision by Christmas I don't see how Massai will blow this team up. The fan base will erupt! Also it's a business after all. Those Playoffs games that's a lot of revenue! At the end of the it always comes down to $$$


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Right, but if it's a choice between minor short term $$$, vs. future long term $$$, which route to you think a savvy executive like Lieweke would opt for?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Right, but if it's a choice between minor short term $$$, vs. future long term $$$, which route to you think a savvy executive like Lieweke would opt for?
    I don't see why we wouldn't make money in the long term. Has Massai not proven his one of the best GMs at retooling? Compared to rebuilding where we have no idea how he would do


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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I don't see why we wouldn't make money in the long term. Has Massai not proven his one of the best GMs at retooling? Compared to rebuilding where we have no idea how he would do


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not sure how any amount of "retooling" will land Toronto a franchise player. And without that franchise player, we're backing into the playoffs for as long as our division sucks.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Thanks for getting the thread going, many of you have hit on the points I would have made...

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    If we have chance at four home playoffs games I'm all for it! If we end having like a 5+ game(which is actually possible) lead on our devision by Christmas I don't see how Massai will blow this team up. The fan base will erupt! Also it's a business after all. Those Playoffs games that's a lot of revenue! At the end of the it always comes down to $$$


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    Bold: Yes it is possible, and IF we had a 5+ game lead on the team in 2nd place Masai probably won't blow it up. BUT the odds of even winning the division are pretty much even for all teams at the moment which means we have roughly a 20% chance of being in first, let alone have a super cushy 5 game lead. The odds of the raps having that lead? It's possible, in the sense that it is possible for my wife to tell me that she wouldn't mind if we had an open relationship and I could start sleeping with other women without making her upset. Both are extremely unlikely. If you think that it is likely that the raps will have a 5+ game lead on the division it probably means they are a legit 4-6 seed, which kinda sounds like crazy talk based on what's happened so far.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    There is a 2 game difference between 1st and 5th. The marginal difference is so small that at this point in time it doesn't mean alot.

    Its definetely probable that this team even with a 'poor' record could win the division, but its unlikey (all the more reason to tank now(ish) and not later!?!?). In a week the standing could be much different. In a month I'd be willing to bet its significantly different.
    This is the problem, the fact that the raps are now the division leaders, doesn't mean that we are a lock to win the division OR make the playoffs. Wanting to keep this team together because "it's possible" to win the division, is the same kind of thinking that has lead us a stray before, how many times have we as fans used "if only" or "it's possible" as a justification to stay the course (mediocrity) hoping for better outcomes? Would I love to hang another division champs banner in the rafters? Absolutely!!! but not if it's going to undermine our chances of putting up a conference champs banner.

    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Sadly, as early as it is in the season, this would mark the latest in the season we've held the divisional lead since we won it in '07.
    This is why I'm worried people will miss interpret our division lead, as evidence that we are actually a team capable of doing damage in the playoffs. Which we are NOT.

    I want a top 5 team in the league. Not a top 10 or a top 15. A top 5.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    I am all for our players improving their game & stats. over the rest of year and raising their stock. I want other gms getting the busy signal when they call MU's phone. I want MU to have options to raise the ante on possible returns. And then.....SELL. That a team which wins this division may conceivably have a losing record....and some are excited with that prospect is confounding.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    There is a 2 game difference between 1st and 5th. The marginal difference is so small that at this point in time it doesn't mean alot.

    Its definetely probable that this team even with a 'poor' record could win the division, but its unlikey (all the more reason to tank now(ish) and not later!?!?). In a week the standing could be much different. In a month I'd be willing to bet its significantly different.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The problem with this scenario is the Raptors could end up going on a 4 games losing streak at the end of the year to end up with the 12th pick.

    What a waste of a season.

    #BlowItUpDec15Masai
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Sadly, as early as it is in the season, this would mark the latest in the season we've held the divisional lead since we won it in '07.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    We are the 4th seed with the 6th best winning percentage in the East. We are TIED with the LAKERS for the 17th best winning percentage in the league. TIED... LAKERS... 17th... If you just went with the best 16 teams in the league for the playoffs the raps wouldn't even qualify. But because of the system if playoffs started today they would have home court advantage in round 1.

    Don't let this fool you!!!

    The raps have less than a month to prove to Masai that they are the real deal, because as of right now, even as the division leaders they are certainly NOT the real deal. And 1 good game doesn't prove much, if anything.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Thu Nov 21st, 2013 at 03:19 AM.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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