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The curse of the Titanic... DIVISION!

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  • #31
    Don't know that this is 100% legit but it's from Zach Lowe, and he's a boss

    The situation isn’t even all that dire if two non–divisional winners finish with better records than a divisional champ. In that case, one of those non-winners gets the no. 3 spot, and the other one, with the lesser record, gets the no. 5 spot — and home-court advantage over the divisional winner in the (undeserved) no. 4 seed. This is what happened in 2011-12, for instance, when the Celtics won the Atlantic Division with a 39-27 record, earning the no. 4 seed over the 40-26 Hawks, but had to go on the road for the first two games of that Atlanta-Boston series. Boston was the no. 4 seed in name only, and the post-2006 rules punished them with home-court disadvantage and the no. 4 spot that comes with a near-guarantee of meeting the top seed in the second round. No harm, no foul.
    So EVEN if we win the division we DON'T get home court advantage, if the 5th seed has a better record. I guess that puts a little damper on the "I like our odds against the Hawks with homecourt advantage" argument doesn't it?
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    • #32
      Eastern Conference is so wide open right now. There's the Heat and the Pacers and there's everybody else.
      Mamba Mentality

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      • #33
        ezz_bee wrote: View Post
        Don't know that this is 100% legit but it's from Zach Lowe, and he's a boss



        So EVEN if we win the division we DON'T get home court advantage, if the 5th seed has a better record. I guess that puts a little damper on the "I like our odds against the Hawks with homecourt advantage" argument doesn't it?
        I've got to say I'm pretty bleeping depressed on the whole situation right now.

        The Raptors are the best of the worst teams... and there are a few more worst teams than anticipated (by me) early.

        It is great to win but as a long time Raptor fan I've been down this road before. I can't enjoy the wins now because I know what happens a year or two down the road: the Raptors will have plateaued while the rest of the league bounces back around them.

        Leiweke came in and said, "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Well that is what I want to see happen. It is not happening with this team though.

        Oh well, a long suffering Raptor fan can continue to suffer. Suffer when they lose; suffer when they win.

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        • #34
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I've got to say I'm pretty bleeping depressed on the whole situation right now.

          The Raptors are the best of the worst teams... and there are a few more worst teams than anticipated (by me) early.

          It is great to win but as a long time Raptor fan I've been down this road before. I can't enjoy the wins now because I know what happens a year or two down the road: the Raptors will have plateaued while the rest of the league bounces back around them.

          Leiweke came in and said, "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Well that is what I want to see happen. It is not happening with this team though.

          Oh well, a long suffering Raptor fan can continue to suffer. Suffer when they lose; suffer when they win.
          Still really early Matt. Still at that point where 5 games can completely alter the outlook around teh whole league.

          Have to keep reminding myself about the Dec 15 date.

          Looking at the schedule, there's a tough stretch in late December that would be the ideal deadline if they want to blow it up early and aim for the lottery. It starts with a 3 game road trip Dec 20 against Dallas, then they play OKC and San Antonio in a back to back. 3 games in 4 nights before the Xmas holiday. Do a trade to blow it up, guys will be out of it, and looking toward the holiday for a breather. Then they play a home and home against the Knicks after the holiday, before having @ CHI and vs. IND on a back to back on New Year's Eve/Day. That's a stretch that can easily derail a season (possibly even without a trade).

          *To any non-tankers, know that I still want/expect trades. Gay is brutal to watch play. I don't care if he's clutch. And Lowry is playing pretty well on an expiring contract. I still don't really see him as a long-term solution at PG and would rather they maximize his value.
          Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:28 PM.

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          • #35
            Nilanka wrote: View Post
            Knicks and Nets both have more talent, and big game experience than the Raptors. That gives them a serious leg up.

            The Nets have a very different roster this year, but the Knicks competed with basically the same core last year. Does Bargnani have that much of a negative affect? We'll see.

            My initial point was that we shouldn't expect this division to be a cake-walk. It's still early. The Knicks and Nets have enough firepower to climb out of an early hole.

            The Raptors, on the other hand, have a GM who's not sure whether to rip the roster to shreds.
            Bargs may in fact have that much of a negative effect on Knicks...lol.

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            • #36
              white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              Still really early Matt. Still at that point where 5 games can completely alter the outlook around teh whole league.

              Have to keep reminding myself about the Dec 15 date.

              Looking at the schedule, there's a tough stretch in late December that would be the ideal deadline if they want to blow it up early and aim for the lottery. It starts with a 3 game road trip Dec 20 against Dallas, then they play OKC and San Antonio in a back to back. 3 games in 4 nights before the Xmas holiday. Do a trade to blow it up, guys will be out of it, and looking toward the holiday for a breather. Then they play a home and home against the Knicks after the holiday, before having @ CHI and vs. IND on a back to back on New Year's Eve/Day. That's a stretch that can easily derail a season (possibly even without a trade).

              *To any non-tankers, know that I still want/expect trades. Gay is brutal to watch play. I don't care if he's clutch. And Lowry is playing pretty well on an expiring contract. I still don't really see him as a long-term solution at PG and would rather they maximize his value.
              Gay will be much harder to move. It may be best to keep Gay and take any opportunistic deals for Lowry...Gay is highly inefficient but can be clutch. It would be better if he hit his clutch shots earlier to avoid close games...

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              • #37
                Watching Wiz/Knicks game. Wiz beating up on the Knicks! NY's defense is just AWFUL.
                Mamba Mentality

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                • #38
                  TRex wrote: View Post
                  Watching Wiz/Knicks game. Wiz beating up on the Knicks! NY's defense is just AWFUL.
                  Not a surprise. The whole Knicks team just plays lazily, especially on that end.
                  Twitter - @thekid_it

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                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I've got to say I'm pretty bleeping depressed on the whole situation right now.

                    The Raptors are the best of the worst teams... and there are a few more worst teams than anticipated (by me) early.

                    It is great to win but as a long time Raptor fan I've been down this road before. I can't enjoy the wins now because I know what happens a year or two down the road: the Raptors will have plateaued while the rest of the league bounces back around them.

                    Leiweke came in and said, "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Well that is what I want to see happen. It is not happening with this team though.

                    Oh well, a long suffering Raptor fan can continue to suffer. Suffer when they lose; suffer when they win.
                    I've been having a string of back and forth's via email with one of my best raptor buddies and he basically feels the same way...

                    I'm scared that in waiting to maximize the value of our trade pieces (Gay, Lowry and Demar) we're missing our tank window.
                    The raptors just beat the 76ers to move into... wait for... FIRST PLACE IN THE ATLANTIC! This worries me for two reasons:
                    1. Other teams are already way ahead of us tank-wise. We're in the playoffs right now for crying out loud. We'd be the fourth seed! If we wait 'till Dec 15th, it will be really hard to get down into where we need to be, lottery-wise.
                    2. Could Masai really tear apart and start full on tanking if we're around .500 and in the playoffs? In the fourth seed!? This is still a crap team, but it would take some huge cojones to tank while in position to have home court advantage! I still think he might, but man... that's a hard sell to shareholders / fans.
                    Initially, my response (basically what WMCJ says above) is that it's early and that all you need to do is go on a losing streak, and have NY or Brooklyn get their sh!t together and it's all good.

                    However, I am starting to get worried that the points he makes in the two sentences that are in bold are starting to worry me as well. Now that D Rose is injured, it really is only a two team conference. If a seven game series started today, could the raps beat the Bulls, Knicks, Nets, or Hawks? The foundations of my tanking philosophy, has been that the raps couldn't get out of the first round, and I felt that as long as Masai felt the same way, then he'd favour a step back as opposed to a stay the course or "win now" move. BUT the longer it takes for NY (probably the return of Chandler, so late December) and Brooklyn (Who knows if they can ever get it together) makes the tank window close too much. Based on how teams are playing right now, there's a legit chance that the Raps actually have 4th best record in the East. IF the raps are the fourth seed because of their lead in the division you can still blow it up (because you don't have home court) however, if the raps are the fourth seed because they have the 4th best record? It's pretty much impossible to pull the trigger at that point. If the Raps beat the Nets (Tues) and the Bulls (Dec. 14)... anyway, let's just say that I'm starting to worry too.

                    Basically, I'm no longer sure you can wait until Dec. 15th to trade Lowry, and fire up the tank.

                    Last point. Yes there's a ton of talent in this draft, BUT it doesn't mean that their won't be talent in other drafts. The way the universe is sticking it to us now, we just may not have a shot at a franchise altering pick this year. Yes that sucks, but it doesn't mean we'll be on the treadmill forever. Ujiri's got a couple of years to remake the roster and get us a contender.


                    EDIT: Also, just because we can't get a top 6 pick, doesn't mean that we still shouldn't trade Lowry (because he's an expiring) Gay, and even Derozan IF Ujiri can get some young players with upside. I think Derozan's contract is VERY tradeable, so maybe you trade him and lowry for young pieces, and hope that means Gay opts out, because it's obvious we aren't contenders next year.

                    Even if the tank window is shut, we still need more assets better value.
                    Last edited by ezz_bee; Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:23 AM.
                    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      I've got to say I'm pretty bleeping depressed on the whole situation right now.

                      The Raptors are the best of the worst teams... and there are a few more worst teams than anticipated (by me) early.

                      It is great to win but as a long time Raptor fan I've been down this road before. I can't enjoy the wins now because I know what happens a year or two down the road: the Raptors will have plateaued while the rest of the league bounces back around them.

                      Leiweke came in and said, "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them." Well that is what I want to see happen. It is not happening with this team though.

                      Oh well, a long suffering Raptor fan can continue to suffer. Suffer when they lose; suffer when they win.
                      I'm not even sure that we are actually better than the teams we are "leading" right now. We are playing better than them, but I don't think we are necessarily better than them going forward. Right now we are 1 game up on the 76ers, who have Nerlens Noel and a nice pick coming in next year. Even if they keep Turner, Young, Hawes, a lineup of MCW, Turner, Wiggins, Young, Hawes with Noel off the bench they are a decent team.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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