GT: TOR Raptors @ PHI 76ers: MCW Drops a Quadruple Double on T.dot

[blackjitsu]

Demar Derozan's teeth look like he been chewing on keyboards

— Ronny Fuckin Powers (@RandomRon) February 14, 2010

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...his-year/page2

So he dissin a kid from Compton for finally getting braces? I don't get it. Dude most be a spoiled suburbs brat.

[Nilanka]

So he dissin a kid from Compton for finally getting braces? I don't get it. Dude most be a spoiled suburbs brat.

It's an old tweet, probably from before DeMar got braces.

[psrs1]

THIS! Everyone hating on Demar needs to open their eyes. When we run an actually offense with a lot of movement and screens, like we ran last night, then Demar hits shots at an incredibly high rate for a SG. When we force him into early shot clock isos, he tends to shoot poorly, as does just about every single player in the NBA. If Demar had a Poppovich type coach he would be an all star right now. If you want an example of a Pop-like coach completely revamping a team offense just check out Atlanta and the massive improvements coach Bud has made with basically the same exact roster Larry Drew had. Teague went from a decent starter to top 3 PG in the league, just via good coaching. Replace Casey with someone who can consistently coach an NBA offense and watch Demar shine.

I could not agree more....would love SVG

[white men can't jump]

Bahahahaha....Really got a kick out of this bolded line from today's Daily Dime recap of last night's game. Seemed very fitting in this season.

MVP: DeMar DeRozan didn't make a field goal in the game's final 18 minutes, 44 seconds. Unlikely he's bothered by this. The cat-quick guard poured in 30 before that, and scored 33 overall. In his past three games, DeRozan is averaging 33 points on 50 percent shooting.

X factor: With perimeter defense so leaky you could drive a tank through it, Philadelphia entered Wednesday last in the NBA in opponent's 3-point field goal percentage and 3-pointers allowed. They didn't improve on this. The Raptors hit a season-high 14 triples on 29 shots.

That was ... economical: Spencer Hawes, who like the rest of the Sixers' veterans is very much on the trade block, continued to up his value, scoring 28 on 13 shots and adding 10 rebounds. Keep that up, young man, and you might get to suddenly move to a strange new city where you don't know anyone!

[OldSkoolCool]

point by point:

1. For the season in 3pt he is 16/42 for 38%, thats half way to your arbitrary century mark... But.. If you include the last 3 games of the last season he now gets 25/54 for 46% at 3.
In the past 15 real NBA games CONSECUTIVELY, Demar has shot 46% from 3 on a sample size of 54 shots.
I wonder how your conjecture looks now: "Until then he is a shitty 3pt shooter and will continue to be a shitty 3pt shooter"
He has actually been a really good 3 point shooter for a longer streak than Bargnanis '13 game extravaganza'.

2. Demar scored 18 points on 54% FG, had 4 assists and 2 steals when matched up against Tony Allen this season... so its kind of weird that you bring him up now... DD is large for an SG and most teams will match up smaller on him. It is true he needs to work better against the longer and stronger perimeter defenders but so far he has done a good job of stretching them out with his 3 pt shooting.

3. "Taking over 18 shots a game and only making 7.5 is not being able to score in a lot of ways, it means he takes a lot of shots."
No one used how many shots a game to show that he can score diversely.. He can score diversely because thats what his skill set is. He CAN finish strong, shoot the 3pter, slash and get by his man off the dribble, off-screen playmaking, run in transition, post-up, draw fouls and hit them. Clearly he has a skill set that very few SGs in this league have. He has shown when he isnt relied upon as a number 1 option that his FG% is actually above average including 50% on 512 shots in the first season, 47% on 1154 shots, and last season 45% on 1231 shots
This season I expect his FG% to normalize some where around 45%, while his 3pt improvement will make his TS% GOOD. The reason it has stunk so bad until now is his lack of 3pt ability.

4. Carlos delfino isnt relied upon to score 20+ points a game. So Carlos gets to take the shots that come to him. Rudy and Demar are taking last second shots when the offense breaks down, lowering their percentages, but they may actually make that shot more often than Carlos due to more talent. Carlos cannot post up, cannot beat his man off the dribble, plays against bench players, and if thrust into Demars exact role, would fail miserably. You cant just use win-share as your downright proof that Demar should get paid Delfino's amount.
Its better to compare to people in the same draft class in a similar position: Gordon Hayward who not only demanded 12M+, but is now becoming an RFA and will probably be offered more.

5. Jumping ability, speed, and strength in the post. His athleticism tires out his defenders, especially since he likes to catch them on screens a lot.

6. Average Defender at best I will concede to. Being 24 and as athletic as he is, he has the potential to vastly improve his defensive effort.

7. Except the reality is that many NBA players struggle, and Demar can capitalize on those freebies other NBA players would fail to get.

8. "Him playing the weakest position in the league is not a good reason for being on the team long term. Actually if he can't distinguish himself from that group, then he is a weak player as well."
What do you mean? If SG is the weakest group in the NBA and you have even a DECENT one, you freaking lock him up long term. If you have a star PG, but there are 20 more, then letting go of any particular PG is much easier. Since Demar is top-5 SG in the league right now (factor in potential as well), you dont freaking let go of him.

9. Your arbitrary scouting report really gives no argument

10. As to the Assists, 7/12 games he has had 3+ assists, including looking for Jonas a lot more this season when the defense collapses. Look for him to continue to notice play-making opportunities, off the screen and off the bounce.

DD is 24, one of the best SGs in the league currently, There are 4 years to show his improvement trajectory and NO reason to expect it to suddenly stop.

Round 2! Fight!

1) I said MAKE 100 threes, anyone can shoot 100 threes. Every season DD has started the season strong and finished strong shooting from distance, but in the middle of every season so far he has been Tony Allen bad. I guess we will see soon enough if he has actually improved.

2) Demar scored 18 points against a massively struggling Memphis team where the Raptors played well and Tonay Allen has not played like himself. I take the benefit of the larger sample size and say that that game was an anomaly. So far this season he has shot under 40% against Boston, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Indiana, Utah, Houston and Portland (ie 7/12 games under 40% shooting). He sure gets out matched by the defense quite often for a good SG. If he gets shut down by defenders 58% the time, he just isn't that good of an offensive player. If he provided something else (like D, rebounding, play-making consistently) then he still has a role, but since 58% time he can't do his only "plus", then he just isn't very good.

3) DD TS% has been below the league average outside of his first season, but you're right, with this new three he may become a league average shooter at the SG position!!! YAY I'm so happy for his development!! Or we could just say that he isn't good, just average, and average players don't have starting roles on championship teams, bye

4) Carlos Delfino can score 20 a game if he shot as much as DD. Instead Delfino plays things like defense, and team basketball, and therefor is a better player. Rudy Gay and DD have to take last second shots, because they stop the ball movement through the set play, and it let's the D catch up on rotations, so they are force to take a stupid shot. Totally avoidable situation if you just remove them from the game. In a league where a player's worth is evaluated by how many wins they can bring a team, I absolutely value a player by how many win-shares the produce. Not DD's fault, Colanegelo was the one who gave him the contract.

5) Jumping ability, speed and strength. Well I'll give you jumping ability, but I already covered that he is slow and weak for his size. Not going there again. Wear's down his defenders??? He requires 0 effort to guard when he doesn't have the ball because he runs lazy screens and rarely cuts. When he has the ball, play off of him and force him left to your big man, which is much easier than having to get up on a player that you know, can shoot. If you want a player who tires you out on D, watch Ray Allen, JJ Redick, old Rip Hamilton, those guys run a lot and you have to chase a lot, DD not so much.

6) You hit the nail on right on the head with "effort". Something that DD has never done in-game. He has zero intensity on the defensive end, never has and he is what he is now, don't expect him to get that intensity.

7) League average SG FT% is 80.1%, DD Shoots 83.1%. Yes he does get to the line more than average, his only attribute that is important, but cannot be a guy's only attribute if he is to be considered a good NBA SG.

8) The thing is, DD is a below average SG, and you are saying that the NBA is full of weak SG's. That by definition makes DD a player that you don't "lock up long term". "DeMar is a top 5 SG in the league right now (factoring in potential)" Oh boy....in no particular order....Klay Thompson, Oladipo, Lance Stephenson, Beal, E. Gordon and the list goes on to include established players like Harden, Wade, Kobe, Allen, Martin, Joe Johnson and so many more!! And so many more that have so much more potential that I would have to literally list 20 or so players. Dream on.

9) Yes my scouting report is arbitrary, doesn't change the fact that he still has a ton of weaknesses on offense.

10) DD is a below average passer who does not actively create shots for his teammates. He only passes when he fails to create a shot for himself. I almost never see him run a PnR and pull the second defender with the intent of passing, he normally just chucks up a shot.

11) DD is 24, but he isn't one of the best SG's in the league currently (by a long shot), oh and his improvement trajectory has declined and flat lined in terms of productivity since his first year.

[Pill]

Once peoples minds are made up about certain raptors players here they are set in stone. No amount of improvement or personal growth will amount to anything for some people here. Narrow minded fans playing fantasy sports. We saw this with ED last year. Same people who ragged on him for years had blinders on to what he was doing before traded. Now they can be all snark and think they are right cause the guy gets 12mpg and it is hard to get into any rhythm playing behind Z-Bo.

[Chr1s1anL]

I agree except that I'm not giving Derozan heat. I have nothing against Derozan personally. I am criticizing those who think he's an important player and not a fungible role player. It's not his fault he signed that big contract. If someone offered me such a contract I would sign it also, and laugh all the way to the bank. His contract is the result of the egos in the front office at that time. I mean, you know in the previous sentences you trashed him yourself right? Or are you just criticizing those who think he's better than you do?

Dd is worth his contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[special1]

Once peoples minds are made up about certain raptors players here they are set in stone. No amount of improvement or personal growth will amount to anything for some people here. Narrow minded fans playing fantasy sports. We saw this with ED last year. Same people who ragged on him for years had blinders on to what he was doing before traded. Now they can be all snark and think they are right cause the guy gets 12mpg and it is hard to get into any rhythm playing behind Z-Bo.

THIS ^^^^^

This is why I just ignore posts from some posters. OBVIOUSLY they dont really watch the Raptors. Some posters are actually arguing that Demar hasn't improved?? Crazy talk....hate or just biased....hmmm....I'm not sure. Oh well....who cares what. Let's see who stays and who goes

[JimiCliff]

Once peoples minds are made up about certain raptors players here they are set in stone. No amount of improvement or personal growth will amount to anything for some people here. Narrow minded fans playing fantasy sports. We saw this with ED last year. Same people who ragged on him for years had blinders on to what he was doing before traded. Now they can be all snark and think they are right cause the guy gets 12mpg and it is hard to get into any rhythm playing behind Z-Bo.

I agree.

This also applies, though, to people who make up their mind about players in a positive way; most dangerously, if one makes up their mind that a player has 'potential'. When this happens, any signs of marginal improvement are magnified beyond reason, while existing flaws are forgotten or looked over. Myself, I was like this with Bargnani.

[enlightenment]

Round 2! Fight!

8) The thing is, DD is a below average SG, and you are saying that the NBA is full of weak SG's. That by definition makes DD a player that you don't "lock up long term". "DeMar is a top 5 SG in the league right now (factoring in potential)" Oh boy....in no particular order....Klay Thompson, Oladipo, Lance Stephenson, Beal, E. Gordon and the list goes on to include established players like Harden, Wade, Kobe, Allen, Martin, Joe Johnson and so many more!! And so many more that have so much more potential that I would have to literally list 20 or so players. Dream on.

I want to focus on this particular point as all the other points eventually come down to is Demar a top 5 SG and worth keeping?

Out of your list, Lance, Gordon, Wade, Johnson, Allen, Martin, Oladipo are all in some way worse than Demar when factoring current ability with potential.

In order: Lance has 0.02 points better in TS% than Demar on 11.6 FGA. Demar keeps roughly the same TS% on 18.5 shots. You would have to show me that Lance can maintain his shooting % the same while averaging 7 more shots, in order to prove that Lance is comparable offensively to Demar. Since its easier to get high percentage when you are the 4th option and shooting only the most open shots compared to running the teams offense as the number 1 or 2 option, that is a discrepancy that is important to note.
Per 36, Lance turns it over roughly 30% more than Demar, yet Demar (27% USG) is being used 137% more than Lance (19.7% USG)
If you look at Lances career, he is only now showing some solid play, and only last year did he bring his FG% above .400

Demars advantages: Better scorer (While at the same TS%), better FT shooter, better at handling the ball, better are being a focal point in an offense, better consistency

Eric Gordon: Same slight advantage at TS%, while Demar shoots 38% more shots in a game. Career Turnovers, Eric averages 141% of the TO% of Demar. Demar is 4 inches taller.

Demars advantages: Better scorer (While at same TS%), better FT shooter, throughout his entire career Demar has about 40% less turnovers than Eric. Taller, Younger, 40% Cheaper, doesnt get hurt (Eric averages 52 games per season, Demar averages 80).

Dwayne Wade: Demar has more range than Dwade, scores more at the same TS%, Averages DOUBLE the turnovers than Demar at the same USG%, Dwade gets hurt much more (averages 66 games per season the past 8 seasons), is a career 76% FT shooter, is older and is declining fast.

Demars advantage: Currently better scorer with more versatility including an outside shot and better FT%, 7 years younger, 3 inches taller, turns it over HALF as much, plays on average 14 more games in a season than Wade. Demar is much cheaper.

Joe Johnson: This one is easy, Joe winshares/48 = 0.062, Demar = .124, Double the win share. Same TS%, 37% less shots. Demar averages DOUBLE the steals, Joe is 32, 8 years older than Demar

Demars advantage: Winshare/48, better scoring; including better versatility (better 3pt and FT), Demar averages double the steals. There is really nothing that Joe does better than Demar, they are either the same at something or Demar is much better. Demar is 8 years younger, and MUCH cheaper.

Allen, Martin, Oladipo:
Allen is the only one with a SERIOUS TS% that is better than Demars, but Demar plays a little bit better defense and has more versatility on offense than Allen, who needs plays to be drawn up for him (cant create on his own). The main advantage here is that Demar is 12 years younger than Allen, making him more valuable for the long-run, but I will concede that Allen is fucking godly. Currently though, I would rather Demar, Beal, or even Oladipo over Allen.

Martin is currently playing the best ball of his life, and he played good ball before hand. Still, would you prefer a 30 yearold Martin over Demar? Since Martin averages 63 games in a season for his ENTIRE career, Maybe. I would leave this as debatable.

Oladipo has played well for a rookie, but his TS% is far below Demar (ouch) and has a negative WS/48. His 5.9 TOV per 36 is more than 3 times that of Demars. I will give Oladipo the benefit of the doubt because of the small sample size and because he is a rookie, but Oladipos 3 years younger than Demar is not enough to offset what has been done in the first 12 games. Demar is easily better than Oladipo.


Those (that you have named) that I believe are better than Demar:
Klay, Beal, Harden, Kobe, with Martin is debatable. (in no particular order ofcourse)

Since Kobe and Martin are getting old, it seems that the best SGs for the next 5+ years are: Klay, Beal, Harden, and Demar.
In my opinion, if you have ONE of those, you lock him up.

EDIT: Wanted to put in salaries of the top SGs:
Klay: Rookie contract (wait till he gets an extension to compare with Demars contract)
Beal: Rookie contract
Harden: 15.7M over 5 years
Kobe: 30M expiring
Martin: 6.5M (but used to make 11M before his last extension, good move by the timberwolves on that contract)
Demar: 9.5M

Demar is really cheap compared to that company and so has great long-term value.

[ball4life]

THIS ^^^^^

This is why I just ignore posts from some posters. OBVIOUSLY they dont really watch the Raptors. Some posters are actually arguing that Demar hasn't improved?? Crazy talk....hate or just biased....hmmm....I'm not sure. Oh well....who cares what. Let's see who stays and who goes

just to know your perspective on Demar's actual impact on games.....Do you realistically think any perceived contender this season will have Demar on their starting lineup?

[Ambidextrious]

nice work enlightenment!

[Blacklash2k4]

I don't mind keeping Demar, but I have to be honest, I really want to know how Ross would do if he was given the starting SG position going forward.

[enlightenment]

nice work enlightenment!

Thanks Ambidextrious, it took like an hour to compare and write down LOL

[OldSkoolCool]

Enlightenment:

-Lance is a much better shooter and passer and defender than DD. Oh and he has made actual improvement every year, unlike DD, who had his best season as a rookie.

-Eric Gordon was an all-star at one point before a terrible injury, he is a better offensive player in EVERY aspect. Defensively is about the same. Remember DD still hasn't made an all-star team, for good reason.

-I can't believe you just tried to compared DD to Wade. Dig up man

-Joe Johnson is off to a rough start, but over the course of his career he has been a better player in every aspect offensively, same level of defense.

-Martin has always been a very good shooter, and when he isn't injured is one of the best in the NBA at scoring. DD is a player who only brings scoring to the game, but who also struggles to score.

-Oladipo you argue has a lower TS% (which is your only stat apparently), but you also said INCLUDING POTENTIAL, Oladipo is a clear winner over DD in that department. Clear winner.

-I could also list Jimmy Butler, Waiters, Mayo, Shumpert, Jordan Crawford, Lamb, Matthews, McLemore, Hardaway Jr., if you want to consider potential. At this stage in DD's career, there isn't much potential left, so I'm going to compare him to veterans, because that's what he is, and he desperately falls short against them. 4th year players need to be producing.

-DD's contract isn't his fault, it's Colangelo's. Still is an over-payment though. And your examples are very poor. Kobe is actually worth 30 million and Harden is actually worth 15.7, DeMar is worth much less than 9.5.