4th seed in the East? Atlantic Division Leaders? Check and Check!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

To all the pro tankers here. Name me a team the last 20 years that 'tanked' and ended winning a championship.

Name a team since the 80's that won their team without acquiring their key player via the top-half of the 1st round of the draft? The 2004 Pistons are the only team, which means they're the exception, not the rule. Tomato, tomato.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

What it comes down to with you pro tankers is you have no faith in Uriji. You think there's only one way to win, and that's to basically give up and hope and pray we get a good pick? Well obviously Masai Uriji believes there's more than one way to turn a team around. And while many question it by pointing out that "you can't think of anything" that will turn it around, ownership doesn't pay you to think. They do pay Uriji to think, $3 million annually in fact.

I think you have that entirely backwards. This is BC's team who we lost faith in long ago. Having faith in MU is to allow him to rebuild the team the way he wants to, be it through the draft, trade, free agency or any/all of the above.

[Mundy]

I think you have that entirely backwards. This is BC's team who we lost faith in long ago. Having faith in MU is to allow him to rebuild the team the way he wants to, be it through the draft, trade, free agency or any/all of the above.

....then why all the tanking threads/avatars? Shouldn't they be Ujiri avatars? You can't say you trust the man then be such a tanking advocate when he's never stated that this is his direction. That's begging the quesion.

[Employee]

What's funny is that the Raps would have an actual real chance of beating the Hawks in a series.

[KeonClark]

What's funny is that the Raps would have an actual real chance of beating the Hawks in a series.

And then George, Rose, James, Wade, Deng, Noah, Hill, Hibbert all go down with injury and we march to our first NBA championship!

[white men can't jump]

....that's begging the question. What if his vision isn't to tank?

Even if his vision isn't to tank, that also doesn't mean his vision is to keep THIS roster together. This roster does not look good together, and the way they play....Well I've seen high school teams play better fundamental team basketball. I can't imagine any GM with an eye toward building a sustainable winning team would watch the Raptors and think "this team is on the right path". So far this season I haven't seen one game where the Raptors really looked like they're playing good, winning basketball.

[KeonClark]

Having faith in MU is to allow him to rebuild the team the way he wants to, be it through the draft, trade, free agency or any/all of the above.

That is not what tank means. I'm pretty sure every single fan on these boards wants change (rebuild). Speaking for the anti-tank crew, we do not want this team to be our roster going forward by any stretch. We just want exactly what you said "allow MU to rebuild the team the way he wants to."

Everybody says the 2014 draft is so drool worthy, but what no tanker ever talks about is 60% of the league SUCKS this year and even harder than actually winning the ping pong game would be losing enough to get in the shitty conversation. Even with trading Gay.

[S.R.]

....then why all the tanking threads/avatars? Shouldn't they be Ujiri avatars? You can't say you trust the man then be such a tanking advocate when he's never stated that this is his direction. That's begging the quesion.

I love the tank avatars. All it means is people are having fun with what, at least initially, is shaping up to be a fairly uninspiring season. A lot of the on-court product so far isn't even that enjoyable to watch (understatement). I'm all for having a good time as a fan whether the year is panning out well or not.

Everybody just wants the team to be a lot better. "Pro-tankers" are not going to weep in sackcloth and ashes if Ujiri manages to retool on the fly and build a championship contender. Post-Colangelo, it just seems like that's the more difficult/risky path than angling for high lottery picks.

[Mundy]

I love the tank avatars. All it means is people are having fun with what, at least initially, is shaping up to be a fairly uninspiring season. A lot of the on-court product so far isn't even that enjoyable to watch (understatement). I'm all for having a good time as a fan whether the year is panning out well or not.

Everybody just wants the team to be a lot better. "Pro-tankers" are not going to weep in sackcloth and ashes if Ujiri manages to retool on the fly and build a championship contender. Post-Colangelo, it just seems like that's the more difficult/risky path than angling for high lottery picks.

I think this is the most level-headed post I've ever read on this subject from somebody on the tank/retool side. I guess I just have blinders on so I don't mind watching ugly wins, I'm just happy to see a win.

[Nilanka]

What's funny is that the Raps would have an actual real chance of beating the Hawks in a series.

The Raptors are 28-40 lifetime vs. the Hawks, and have lost 6 of the last 8 meetings.

Sadly, even the mediocre Hawks would be a tough test for the Raptors.

[Mundy]

Even if his vision isn't to tank, that also doesn't mean his vision is to keep THIS roster together. This roster does not look good together, and the way they play....Well I've seen high school teams play better fundamental team basketball. I can't imagine any GM with an eye toward building a sustainable winning team would watch the Raptors and think "this team is on the right path". So far this season I haven't seen one game where the Raptors really looked like they're playing good, winning basketball.

I get that indeed and you're right. The fundamentals of this team are awful. BUT.... if, say, Rudy was traded for a Parsons-type player, wouldn't that improve our overall ball movement? Don't JV, Amir and Lowry all look to distribute? If Ross stepped his game up like he did last night and stretched the floor while DD and Val finished...... I'm not saying championship, I'm just saying we could improve drastically by getting rid of a selfish player and injecting a solid team player into the lineup.

.....but, as always, I'll finish my post by saying that my faith in Ujiri means that I'll cheer for wins no matter what, and if he decides that we need to tank then the wins will be sparse because of the talent (or lack thereof) on the roster, not because we bench better players in favor of development.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I'd argue that Billups and both Wallaces were "elite" in their primes.

Regardless, should our aim be to replicate an anomaly like the Pistons?

You know were buddies and riding the tank movement together but i'd argue for the sake of arguing, hehehe

Chauncey actually hit his prime after the pistons won back in 2004. Wallace although had all-star numbers, was far from elite, i guess it depends how you define elite, but for me, Ben Wallace was never elite.

On the other hand, should we also aim to replicate an anomaly like the Thunder?

hehehehe peace!

[BobLoblaw]

To all the pro tankers here. Name me a team the last 20 years that 'tanked' and ended winning a championship.

You've been signed up here since Oct 2012, I'm surprised you haven't seen a bunch of discussions that discussed the exact same thing.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Well, first, your goal posts are ludicrous. Winning a title is virtually impossible as only one team can do that each year and, even for the best teams, requires a healthy degree of good luck and good timing.

Second, every NBA champion since 1980 has a generational superstar talent with the exception of the 2004 Pistons. The common denominator isn't how champions were built, it's that they all had at least one singular great player.

Having said that, I'll give you best example of a recent tank that worked: Celtics. Traded the picks and young guys they got from tanking for Garnett and Allen.

An example also overlooked is the Heat. Riley had Wade but did nothing to improve the team for 2 solid years (much to Wade's dismay at the time) and, in fact, made moves like the O'Neal trade that made the team worse. Why? To clear cap space to sign Lebron and Bosh. Was it tanking? Well, they weren't trying to win....

Also, as above, your question conveniently ignores both the Thunder and the Cavs that went to NBA Finals after tanking outright for specific players.

One more note: Colangelo tried the anti-tank route for years here in Toronto. How'd that work? I don't know that tanking will work for Toronto - there are no guarantees it will - but I can absolutely, positively-frickin guarantee you that the status quo in Raptorland is going nowhere fast.

I agree wholeheartedly!

I think the right thing to say is, tanking for high lottery picks will NOT give you a championship, but will put you in the BEST position to do so.

FINE PRINT though, only if your draft pick, one, doesnt end up being a bust, and two, actually stays long enough for the team to put the other pieces in place in order to win a championship.

[Mundy]

I agree wholeheartedly!

I think the right thing to say is, tanking for high lottery picks will NOT give you a championship, but will put you in the BEST position to do so.

FINE PRINT though, only if your draft pick, one, doesnt end up being a bust, and two, actually stays long enough for the team to put the other pieces in place in order to win a championship.

Apparently the Raptors have never ever ever read the fine print haha