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Thread: On Valanciunas - The blasphemy thread

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    I have my concerns about that young fella too.
    I'm not sure that I would.
    Anybody else a little wary about Irving's ability to run a team?

    But yeah, the point remains.
    It's putting JV on that type of pedestal that motivated this thread.
    I also have huge concerns about Irving and don't understand how a PG who doesn't play D and struggles mightily to run a team's offence is considered a franchise player. He also dominates the ball far too much even for a PG. He'd rather try to cross over 4 defenders than make a simple pass, because his handles are good enough that he thinks it's the right thing to do. It's his 3rd season, and his team looks awful, and a big part is that I don't think he really gets how to play his position or be a leader. He just doesn't play like he "gets it" enough so far. Will the light ever really come on? The talent is definitely there if it does.

    And it's not putting JV on a pedestal.....Considering age, potential, position and what we've already seen from Jonas to know he has a good chance of maximizing (or coming close to doing so) his potential, the only player on that list from Special1 I'd probably take is Anthony Davis. And like I said in my post, would probably consider Paul or George. Don't think I'd take Paul. Might take George, especially if he keeps growing his game this season.

    Noah and Hibbert? Are already at their ceilings which are not as high as Jonas'.

    Griffin? Frustrating as hell. The same player as when he was drafted. Doesn't play the game with his head, and he should be ashamed of how little he's improved in the post. Also isn't great defensively at the PF spot, nevermind compared to a top-tier C.

    Harden is a tough choice, but I wouldn't do it. I think he's about as valuable as a top-tier 2-way C. So unless I knew I'd have a replacement for Jonas, I'd feel like it's a lateral move. As good as Harden is offensively, he's not PG good at running a team, nor is he as effective on both ends, and I'm not sold on leadership ability.

    Aldridge is probably the next toughest choice...but given his age, contract, that he fits better at PF than C....yeah, don't think it moves team-building forward as well as keeping Jonas.

    When you trade your best young prospects for guys you can't confidently say make this team better in 2-3 years, then you're not building a team the right way, IMO.

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    I like Valenciunas, and certainly think he's a valuable asset with a bright future. But if we where in win-now mode, Amir should be the starting centre, Tyler should be the starting power forward, and JV should be the second big of the bench behind Acy.

    If our starting line up was Johnson-Hansbrough-Fields-Ross-Lowry we would be winning more games. If that's a good thing or not, is a different question.

    A useful link: http://is.gd/raptors2013

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I like Valenciunas, and certainly think he's a valuable asset with a bright future. But if we where in win-now mode, Amir should be the starting centre, Tyler should be the starting power forward, and JV should be the second big of the bench behind Acy.

    If our starting line up was Johnson-Hansbrough-Fields-Ross-Lowry we would be winning more games. If that's a good thing or not, is a different question.

    A useful link: http://is.gd/raptors2013
    I didn't even know this until yesterday, but Amir is 6-9, 210. Not really big enough to be a starting C...

  4. #84
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I also have huge concerns about Irving and don't understand how a PG who doesn't play D and struggles mightily to run a team's offence is considered a franchise player. He also dominates the ball far too much even for a PG. He'd rather try to cross over 4 defenders than make a simple pass, because his handles are good enough that he thinks it's the right thing to do. It's his 3rd season, and his team looks awful, and a big part is that I don't think he really gets how to play his position or be a leader. He just doesn't play like he "gets it" enough so far. Will the light ever really come on? The talent is definitely there if it does.

    And it's not putting JV on a pedestal.....Considering age, potential, position and what we've already seen from Jonas to know he has a good chance of maximizing (or coming close to doing so) his potential, the only player on that list from Special1 I'd probably take is Anthony Davis. And like I said in my post, would probably consider Paul or George. Don't think I'd take Paul. Might take George, especially if he keeps growing his game this season.

    Noah and Hibbert? Are already at their ceilings which are not as high as Jonas'.

    Griffin? Frustrating as hell. The same player as when he was drafted. Doesn't play the game with his head, and he should be ashamed of how little he's improved in the post. Also isn't great defensively at the PF spot, nevermind compared to a top-tier C.

    Harden is a tough choice, but I wouldn't do it. I think he's about as valuable as a top-tier 2-way C. So unless I knew I'd have a replacement for Jonas, I'd feel like it's a lateral move. As good as Harden is offensively, he's not PG good at running a team, nor is he as effective on both ends, and I'm not sold on leadership ability.

    Aldridge is probably the next toughest choice...but given his age, contract, that he fits better at PF than C....yeah, don't think it moves team-building forward as well as keeping Jonas.

    When you trade your best young prospects for guys you can't confidently say make this team better in 2-3 years, then you're not building a team the right way, IMO.
    I get you, and I agree for the most part actually.
    When it comes to Irving, you pretty well explained my thoughts exactly.

    Considering our position, it doesn't make sense to trade JV for most of those players.
    The rest of the roster is just too crummy.
    But I don't predict that he will be better or more valuable than but a couple of them, if any.

    On potential, I take him over Griffin any day, and Harden because I worry about his game for more or less the same reasons as Irving. I bet Chris Paul would swap Griffin and Jordan for JV and Amir. I bet he would.
    But the other folks are very solid and play winning, team basketball.

    So, based on context I get it, but something tells me JV will not be as good as Hibbert or Noah.
    But I have to admit I didn`t realize how young he was relative to these guys when he entered the league, and that`s a huge factor. Here`s hoping!

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I didn't even know this until yesterday, but Amir is 6-9, 210. Not really big enough to be a starting C...
    Performance is a better metric than size, Amir has played plenty of C for the team, and has done very well.

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    I would just like to remind you all that the point of this thread was not to play GM.
    I don't think that's very interesting or realistic in this situation.

    The point was to discuss what you really expect Jonas to become.
    Player development, predictions, etc.

    Think like a scout instead of a GM - what do you really see when you watch the guy play?
    If you weren't involved with the team, what would you think of him?
    -High (elite) motor
    -Elite work ethic and attitude
    -Good awareness
    -Good bball IQ (both this and awareness will also be easier to judge given more time and responsibilities)
    -Good, but not elite, athleticism
    -ability to finish on both sides of the block with both hands...on hook shots and lay-ins.
    -budding face-up game made possible by smooth jumper. Needs to take jumper more, and pump fake less. HE's good at both, but his decisions don't always maximize those skills.
    -back-down game developing, but is there enough to know he'll be a solid if not dominant threat on the low block.
    -Shows the ability to pass out of the post, but needs more work here.
    -Solid screener. Needs to get a bit better, but some of his moving screen fouls are as much the wing/PG's fault, if not more. Possibly on the coach for not practicing the screen'n'roll enough.
    -Rolls hard to the basket. Gives a 2nd effort if looked off (ie goes to set another screen on/off the ball on the perimeter).
    -Fairly good at establishing low-post position. Tries properly to get the guy on his hip.
    -Defensively gives great effort
    -Needs positional work on P'n'R...the higher the p'n'r, the harder it is for him to guard it. Pretty standard for Cs though.
    -Solid individual low post defender
    -Decent and still visibly improving rim protector. Knows how to use length to block shots (with both hands) and can block shots without leaving his feet. Becoming good at guarding the front of the rim/middle of the paint (forcing guys to move away from the rim as they finish), and becoming better and better at staying vertical.
    -Has a knack for keeping blocked shots inbounds (great for initiating fast breaks)
    -Rebounds well in his zone, where his size and activity bother opponents a lot
    -Doesn't rebound great out of his zone
    -Attacks the glass on both ends
    -Good FT shooter (thus not a late game liability in that sense)
    -Turns it over too much when putting the ball on the floor on the block, especially as he still is not good at dealing with multiple defenders. Needs to protect it better.
    -Has a tendency to sometimes put up "weak" attempts near the rim. An issue not uncommon for young big men as they are accustomed to being the biggest guy on the floor and not worrying about someone blocking their shot. Something you figure will diminish with experience, and doesn't significantly limit his game.
    -Some foul issues. Not hugely worrying. By-product of being big and active, and something he'll have to (and I expect he will) learn to balance.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 24th, 2013 at 05:06 PM.

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  8. #87
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    What the hell?
    Ignorant white noise.

    Don't even bother.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #88
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with the original post in this thread, and OP has every right to his opinion on the subject. I happen to disagree, but that's fine.

    However, what in the actual fuck is happening in the rest of this thread?

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  11. #89
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    "think like a scout, not like a gm".

    I am befuddled.

  12. #90
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    "think like a scout, not like a gm".

    I am befuddled.
    I think he meant what you see in his game, as opposed to how you gauge his value in the league.

  13. #91
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    heh.

    GM's think like scouts first.

  14. #92
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    What the hell?
    He's rude and probably racist person. Just ignore him!

  15. #93
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Performance is a better metric than size
    Generally I agree with this, but 6-9 210 would have to be the smallest starting C in the league by a long shot; there's a reason nobody does this. And then coupling him with Hansbrough (6-9 250) makes us just tiny up front. I don't think it's our best option.

    Of course, I want us to lose, so...let's try it!

  16. #94
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    I don't have a problem with the original post in this thread, and OP has every right to his opinion on the subject. I happen to disagree, but that's fine.

    However, what in the actual fuck is happening in the rest of this thread?
    Haha right?

    Sometimes I feel like these discussions can be visualized as a thousand bouncy balls being simultaneously unleashed in a warehouse.

    Topic?
    NOPE.

    Anyway, this talk has been pretty fruitful for me at least.
    I still worry about his decision making, but I'm coming around otherwise.
    Some of you have made some good points.

  17. #95
    Raptors Republic All-Star consmap's Avatar
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    Also, I think JV isn't looking good offensively due to the "offensive gameplan" we're using right now.
    This doesn't just apply to JV though, I mean, who in our starting 5 actually looks like an effective player on offense with the "plays" that are run by the coaching staff? The iso-heavy offense is causing Rudy and DD to throw up contested bricks. Lowry isn't really attacking as much or playing to his strengths and just feeds the ball to one of our wings so they can go to work. Amir's offensive game is desperately missing the pick and roll. JV would appreciate it if he could be fed in the post more often when he gets decent position.
    Now, this doesn't mean that all of JV's shortcomings are a result of coaching. But I think we would be able to get a better idea of how good he is if he was placed in a system that better utilized his physical and mental tools.This applies to everyone on our roster too.

  18. #96
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    There are no factors limiting him. He is being properly coached, his minutes are fair, and he is getting better. Nothing to see here. I think people simply need to temper expectations and be patient.
    This x1000.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  19. #97
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    I like JV, and I think he has the potential to be an impact player. Franchise player...no, no I don't see that...there are only a handful of them in the league at any point in time, and all time, there have only been a handful of C's I'd say were franchise players. Franchise player is quite the lofty expectation.

    Right now we aren't using him enough to really judge the kid I think. And I believe his decision making is a reflection of his lack of touches. The team is still trying to figure out how to play together...and by that I mean DD and Gay are still trying to figure out how to play within a team game (Gay moreso than DD). But I think his role will grow as the season progresses, if the team comes together more and our wings start to trust him more. But he needs to improve on a few things himself I think before the team is going to trust him with a bigger role. He needs to be better defensively, specifically with his rotations and help D. He is pretty good one on one, but he needs work with positioning on help. Screens...he needs to work on setting screens, and some of this might be chemistry with our wings, but I think his positioning could be a little better to help free up the wing, and needs to better recognize when to roll to the basket or hang back for a possible jumper. He also has to make that jumper when he's open, he has got guys to bite on the fake, but defenders know he can put it on the floor and drive so they are giving him space. Sometimes he drives anyway, so just take the shot big fella.

    There is a lot of upside with this kid, we should be patient with his development because right now, the team is clearly not nurturing the kid in a way that maximizes his development rate. Plus, big men supposedly develop slower than most or so I have heard.

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  21. #98
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Only thing I will add (not sure if it's been said, there's some long posts in here) is that both JV and Amir are afterthoughts on this team right now. They will have good numbers from time to time but, the majority of the time, their production will suffer because they simply don't get good opportunities with the ball. Even in games where Amir and JV are going well, they will be frozen out for long stretches.

    As for particulars, Val's only real issue on offense this year has been his FG%. That will normalize somewhere north of where it is now. Defensively, I find it hard to comment on players because I don't know what system they are running and what guy's responsibilities are in given situations but his DRTG is down 5 points for whatever that is worth.

    Not every Raptor has to be Bargnani or VC. Some of them can be somewhere in the middle. Not sure where Val's ceiling is but people need to relax with a 21-year old who hasn't even played 100 games....

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  23. #99
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    It's not in Valanciunas athletically to be where those guys are. He doesn't have the quickness of Noah or the size and strength of Horford and Hibbert.
    Hibbert and Horford will still in college at 21. JV is on course. He needs more touches and more minutes. Hibbert was slow and soft his first two years in NBA.

  24. #100
    Raptors Republic Superstar lilmamba_'s Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Thank god someone said this! WTF man.....I thought euro fanboys left with Bargnani! Are you guys serious??? I would trade JV for soooo many players (including Kyrie Irving, Lamarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul, Paul George, Hibbert, Noah, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, James Harden, etc.) The list goes on!
    how come no one told me we could get a cp or uncle drew for jv!?!?!?!? WE CAN???? get this done asap i mean right now!
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