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Thread: On Valanciunas - The blasphemy thread

  1. #101
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
    Do you believe Hibbert was better than JV at the same point in his NBA career?

  2. #102
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
    Bigs traditionally do take longer to develop.

  3. #103
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Valanciunas is not Hibbert, Horford, or anyone else. I can only judge Valanciunas by what he's done and doing on the court, not by what other guys are doing and have done. If you think he will become something significantly better than this, it's up to you to explain why, and I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
    And you're not moved by arguments comparing their stats at similar points in time either.

    So what is one to do to move you? Nothing.

    It is clear your opinion is not open to debate because a player who is bigger than Horford and Noah with the same wing span as Hibbert who has already proven to be more mobile and a better rebounder than Hibbert at 21 is simply at the stage in his career where he is what he is.


    Carry on.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I don't much care about his stats at this point because the sample size is too small. I'd need at least 2 full seasons with a guy like this. He's doing worse this year compared to last year if you want to make a point of that -- his win shares/48 are down 30% over last year.

    Here's an argument I'd consider: can you explain why he will improve without talking about his age or talking about some other player? I've already done the opposite in the first post on this subject -- ie. he's too ectomorphic to be really strong enough and he's not quick enough laterally.
    How about the argument that you don't know how evaluate a basketball player? I don't know what else to tell you. You won't be swayed by stats, or people listing off his skills, or the fact that he's young and has a work ethic and motor at an elite level so you know he'll make every effort and improve. Over the course of his still extremely young career, Jonas has shown flashes or consistently brings just about every skill you could possibly want from a true C. That doesn't mean everything he's shown flashes with will become something he can consistently bring, but to think he is what he is, and that that's not good player, at 21 years old still growing into his body, and when he's still even learning English....Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

    *How about the fact that two teams with excellent programs in San Antonio and OKC have been rumored to have interest in him leading back to his draft? Yeah, Jonas must be a low-ceiling player who has no chance of being anything special. It's not like those guys know how to scout talent.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 24th, 2013 at 08:22 PM.

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  6. #105
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I don't much care about his stats at this point because the sample size is too small. I'd need at least 2 full seasons with a guy like this. He's doing worse this year compared to last year if you want to make a point of that -- his win shares/48 are down 30% over last year.

    Here's an argument I'd consider: can you explain why he will improve without talking about his age or talking about some other player? I've already done the opposite in the first post on this subject -- ie. he's too ectomorphic to be really strong enough and he's not quick enough laterally.
    Hibbert did worse in year 2 than 1.

    Too ectomorphic? Since when is that a bad trait in a near or at 7' basketball player with a 7'4" wingspan? We're not talking John Henson here. I'm not sure how Joakim Noah is not too strong or Roy Hibbert is not quick enough laterally. Bad players, good players, great players come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

    Again, you've already made up your mind.


    I stick to the idea JV is likely to have a career statistically speaking similar to Noah, Horford, and Hibbert and will likely be an all-star like each of the previously mentioned assuming the Raptors ever make the playoffs with a better than .500 record.

    We'll see.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #106
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I already said he was a good player.
    Does not sound like it.

  8. #107
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    How about the argument that you don't know how evaluate a basketball player? I don't know what else to tell you. You won't be swayed by stats, or people listing off his skills, or the fact that he's young and has a work ethic and motor at an elite level so you know he'll make every effort and improve. Over the course of his still extremely young career, Jonas has shown flashes or consistently brings just about every skill you could possibly want from a true C. That doesn't mean everything he's shown flashes with will become something he can consistently bring, but to think he is what he is, and that that's not good player, at 21 years old still growing into his body, and when he's still even learning English....Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

    *How about the fact that two teams with excellent programs in San Antonio and OKC have been rumored to have interest in him leading back to his draft? Yeah, Jonas must be a low-ceiling player who has no chance of being anything special. It's not like those guys know how to scout talent.
    That is a great point.

    Parker for JV
    Harden for JV

    Both reportedly offered.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #108
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    ...he's "only" putting up 12-10 (not saying that's what he will average, but it's a possibility)....
    His per 36 this year is 10/10. And that's with two wings shooting 60% of the shots and everyone looking off JV after the first 10 minutes of the game.

  10. #109
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    Quote lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
    exactly you dont need a wing with all of the above you need wings who has atleast some of the qualifications. we need wings who can compliment each other and co exist.. we already got them
    The Raps have the first two:
    Athletic
    Closer

    Now they need three \MORE wings for
    Ball Handling Skills
    Great Defense
    High IQ


  11. #110
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The Raps have the first two:
    Athletic
    Closer

    Now they need three \MORE wings for
    Ball Handling Skills
    Great Defense
    High IQ

    We need runners too, because that is different than athletic.
    :s

  12. #111
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    He could still be a very good center.
    There's room in the NBA for a top 5 center.
    But I don't think he's going to be dominant.
    Just since the end of last season, I've seen (multiple) Raptors fans argue that Rudy Gay is better than Paul George and Carmelo, that there's little difference between Al Horford and Amir Johnson, that Jonas vision is a lot like Sabonis, that Ross is going to be a better player than Andre Drummond...

    So I'm sure there are people who think Jonas will be dominant. But I think most Raptors fans have no illusions of Jonas dominating the league. It's hard to do nowadays anyway.

    Jonas came into the league with comparisons like Tyson Chandler, Noah, Varejao, Gortat. And I think he can still get there, in fact I would bet that he will.

    As for his vision/creativity, yes, he tunnel visions. He was ranked so high as a prospect because he was relentless, in addition to good size, length, athleticism and touch, not because teams saw a Pau Gasol in him. Now, he's not as bad as Bismack Biyombo, but it's clearly a weakness when you compare him to most all star centers.

    I'm more curious about other areas of his development, such as shooting range and overall defense. If he's going to be an all star center, I think it would have to be as a mix of Gortat (offensively) and Asik (defensively), i.e. a fairly mechanic but tough two way center. This is what me and I think many people hoped for while Jonas was still in Europe, and I think he can still get there.

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  14. #112
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    has JV even taken a mid range jump shot this season yet? haven't seen it as far as i know. basically making his pump fake worthless.

  15. #113
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    JV may never become an all-star (all-stars are a joke anyway.. it depends on the conference, and how good the team is). Heck Jameer Nelson was an all-star once. JV will probably never become a hall of famer (well I guess that will be again determined by if the team he's on wins at least 2 championships), but I think he's going to have a pretty good career unless he has some kind of career ending injury early in his career.

    7 footers have always been coveted and they probably always will. They also don't grow on trees. Basketball is easier when you have tall guys playing for you. The thing about JV is that he dominated his age group, he can shoot free throws, he has a high motor and is a national hero in a home country that lives and breathes the sport.

    He may not be as athletically gifted as Kareem/Shaq or Wilt but he can easily become a center piece of a championship team.

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  17. #114
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    has JV even taken a mid range jump shot this season yet? haven't seen it as far as i know. basically making his pump fake worthless.
    answering my own question..hes currently 6/22 from outside the paint. yah...worthless pump fake.

  18. #115
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    It's not in Valanciunas athletically to be where those guys are. He doesn't have the quickness of Noah or the size and strength of Horford and Hibbert.
    Well, it's easy to make anyone look inferior with one sided observations. But on the other hand, Jonas has longer arms and a bigger frame than Noah, more size than Horford (you might be confusing Horford with some other player there), more mobility than Hibbert. He is also stronger than Hibbert was just a few years ago. Jonas is no Wilt Chamberlain, but he's still a physically gifted player.

  19. #116
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    You haven't made up your mind, yeah?
    I'm not asking for an argument to persuade me as you have requested.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #117
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    ...I am not moved by "he's only such-and-such age" arguments. I've been following sports for too long to buy into that crap.
    That is just a little silly.

    JV has been playing in Europe his whole life, till last year. European basketball is demonstrably different then the NBA. European basketball is consistent throughout it's club system and into it's pro leagues. Therefore JV has had 8 years of a particular style of play, 8 years of expectations on how he (as a center) should play within a Euro style team system. He is now having to forget that style and learn a significantly different style. Not impossible in the least, but it is bound to make him hesitate periodically as old reflexes kick in.

    Saying age makes no difference is particularly silly. Not sure how old you are, but most males change quite significantly between the age 20 and 25. If they are working out religiously, they get heavier as they add muscle mass and they get significantly stronger. It will be possible for JV to add 15 - 20 pounds of muscle over the next three years. Adding it while working on his skills will improve his game tremendously. JV, with an extra 20 pounds of well practiced muscle in three years will be bigger, heavier, stronger, more skilled and is going to be a scary, scary proposition for almost any center in the league (world) to face. His shooting mechanics are excellent. He will be a threat out to 18 feet, no problem.

  21. #118
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    I dont see how anyone can come to any conclusion about how JV is playing this season with Casey as coach, ball hogging wings and zero pick and roll. They only run plays for him on the first 2 possessions of the game. That is it.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    He can't defeat his somatotype by working out.
    Somatotypes are BS. Anyone can get big (barring some kind of genetic defect) by working out.

    People just have different starting points.

  23. #120
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    He can't defeat his somatotype by working out.
    I'm 6'7".

    I can tell you right now you are 100% wrong.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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