On Valanciunas - The blasphemy thread

[RandomGuy]

Thank god someone said this! WTF man.....I thought euro fanboys left with Bargnani! Are you guys serious??? I would trade JV for soooo many players (including Kyrie Irving, Lamarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul, Paul George, Hibbert, Noah, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, James Harden, etc.) The list goes on!

What the hell?

[white men can't jump]

But really think of it...by position and players available....who's worth trading a possible top-tier C for?

I wouldn't trade a top-tier C for a PG, the hardest position to build around if that's where your franchise player is. The smallest guy on the court is very rarely able to consistently dominate. Would I consider trading Jonas for Paul (best PG in the league)? I might, but I'd have a mighty hard time actually going through with it. If Paul were younger and still on his rookie deal, I'd probably do it in a heartbeat because you'd have the flexibility to get him the help he needs, especially down low, because he is not at the level of a LeBron or KD in terms of being able to dominate.

SGs? Already said multiple times I wouldn't trade Jonas for Harden, who is likely the best SG in the game now. Harden helps your offence, and gives you a go-to perimeter scorer. He's not as good a floor general as an elite PG, and he doesn't help your D like a top-tier C. You get Harden and it's hard to keep adding pieces to build toward a championship. It should be noted that Houston did not give up anything particularly valuable in that sense when getting Harden. Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb? Shit, if OKC had asked for DeMar and Ross, that's not even a discussion. But JV and extra assets? Not worth it.

SFs? Arguably the best position right now in terms of franchise talents with LBJ and Durant there, not to mention very good players like George and Melo. But looking at it, after LBJ and Durant, I still wouldn't trade a top-tier C for any of those guys. I might consider it with George, but that's probably about it.

PF? Davis is really the only option here when you count age. I wouldn't trade Jonas for Love. Might have to think about it a bit with Horford or Aldridge, but in the end I'd rather have the true C than a 2-way PF who plays out of position. If Nowitzki, Duncan or KG were still in their primes...yeah, obviously I'd do that.

C? Deep but weak position in terms of dominant players. Lopez is still not a good defensive player. Howard is still not as good as you want on offence. Bynum's done.....Don't like Cousins' attitude or D. Not a lot of options where it's like "oh yeah, this guy will be a better C than Jonas for a long time".

So yeah, in the end it's pretty hard to find palatable trade scenarios for Jonas, at least for me. it all comes back to the simple question of...."If Jonas has a very good chance to be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team, what do you trade him for?" The only obvious answer is an obvious franchise player. If it's not, you're likely trading for another guy who is ideally the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team or a faux #1 guy...which is how I think of Chris Paul. He can be your leader and best player on a contender, but he'll need better players around him than LeBron will in order to have a legit shot.

[Shrub]

Thank god someone said this! WTF man.....I thought euro fanboys left with Bargnani! Are you guys serious??? I would trade JV for soooo many players (including Kyrie Irving, Lamarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul, Paul George, Hibbert, Noah, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, James Harden, etc.) The list goes on!

I have my concerns about that young fella too.
I'm not sure that I would.
Anybody else a little wary about Irving's ability to run a team?

But yeah, the point remains.
It's putting JV on that type of pedestal that motivated this thread.

[Dino4life]

Thank god someone said this! WTF man.....I thought euro fanboys left with Bargnani! Are you guys serious??? I would trade JV for soooo many players (including Kyrie Irving, Lamarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul, Paul George, Hibbert, Noah, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, James Harden, etc.) The list goes on!

In terms of talent, you're right, but because of timing i'd only take the guys on rookie deals, having one of those guys carry the team to 8th seed for 2 years then Watch them walk out in free agency or demand a trade is not good business long term.

[Shrub]

I would just like to remind you all that the point of this thread was not to play GM.
I don't think that's very interesting or realistic in this situation.

The point was to discuss what you really expect Jonas to become.
Player development, predictions, etc.

Think like a scout instead of a GM - what do you really see when you watch the guy play?
If you weren't involved with the team, what would you think of him?

[white men can't jump]

I have my concerns about that young fella too.
I'm not sure that I would.
Anybody else a little wary about Irving's ability to run a team?

But yeah, the point remains.
It's putting JV on that type of pedestal that motivated this thread.

I also have huge concerns about Irving and don't understand how a PG who doesn't play D and struggles mightily to run a team's offence is considered a franchise player. He also dominates the ball far too much even for a PG. He'd rather try to cross over 4 defenders than make a simple pass, because his handles are good enough that he thinks it's the right thing to do. It's his 3rd season, and his team looks awful, and a big part is that I don't think he really gets how to play his position or be a leader. He just doesn't play like he "gets it" enough so far. Will the light ever really come on? The talent is definitely there if it does.

And it's not putting JV on a pedestal.....Considering age, potential, position and what we've already seen from Jonas to know he has a good chance of maximizing (or coming close to doing so) his potential, the only player on that list from Special1 I'd probably take is Anthony Davis. And like I said in my post, would probably consider Paul or George. Don't think I'd take Paul. Might take George, especially if he keeps growing his game this season.

Noah and Hibbert? Are already at their ceilings which are not as high as Jonas'.

Griffin? Frustrating as hell. The same player as when he was drafted. Doesn't play the game with his head, and he should be ashamed of how little he's improved in the post. Also isn't great defensively at the PF spot, nevermind compared to a top-tier C.

Harden is a tough choice, but I wouldn't do it. I think he's about as valuable as a top-tier 2-way C. So unless I knew I'd have a replacement for Jonas, I'd feel like it's a lateral move. As good as Harden is offensively, he's not PG good at running a team, nor is he as effective on both ends, and I'm not sold on leadership ability.

Aldridge is probably the next toughest choice...but given his age, contract, that he fits better at PF than C....yeah, don't think it moves team-building forward as well as keeping Jonas.

When you trade your best young prospects for guys you can't confidently say make this team better in 2-3 years, then you're not building a team the right way, IMO.

[Quirk]

I like Valenciunas, and certainly think he's a valuable asset with a bright future. But if we where in win-now mode, Amir should be the starting centre, Tyler should be the starting power forward, and JV should be the second big of the bench behind Acy.

If our starting line up was Johnson-Hansbrough-Fields-Ross-Lowry we would be winning more games. If that's a good thing or not, is a different question.

A useful link: http://is.gd/raptors2013

[JimiCliff]

I like Valenciunas, and certainly think he's a valuable asset with a bright future. But if we where in win-now mode, Amir should be the starting centre, Tyler should be the starting power forward, and JV should be the second big of the bench behind Acy.

If our starting line up was Johnson-Hansbrough-Fields-Ross-Lowry we would be winning more games. If that's a good thing or not, is a different question.

A useful link: http://is.gd/raptors2013

I didn't even know this until yesterday, but Amir is 6-9, 210. Not really big enough to be a starting C...

[Shrub]

I also have huge concerns about Irving and don't understand how a PG who doesn't play D and struggles mightily to run a team's offence is considered a franchise player. He also dominates the ball far too much even for a PG. He'd rather try to cross over 4 defenders than make a simple pass, because his handles are good enough that he thinks it's the right thing to do. It's his 3rd season, and his team looks awful, and a big part is that I don't think he really gets how to play his position or be a leader. He just doesn't play like he "gets it" enough so far. Will the light ever really come on? The talent is definitely there if it does.

And it's not putting JV on a pedestal.....Considering age, potential, position and what we've already seen from Jonas to know he has a good chance of maximizing (or coming close to doing so) his potential, the only player on that list from Special1 I'd probably take is Anthony Davis. And like I said in my post, would probably consider Paul or George. Don't think I'd take Paul. Might take George, especially if he keeps growing his game this season.

Noah and Hibbert? Are already at their ceilings which are not as high as Jonas'.

Griffin? Frustrating as hell. The same player as when he was drafted. Doesn't play the game with his head, and he should be ashamed of how little he's improved in the post. Also isn't great defensively at the PF spot, nevermind compared to a top-tier C.

Harden is a tough choice, but I wouldn't do it. I think he's about as valuable as a top-tier 2-way C. So unless I knew I'd have a replacement for Jonas, I'd feel like it's a lateral move. As good as Harden is offensively, he's not PG good at running a team, nor is he as effective on both ends, and I'm not sold on leadership ability.

Aldridge is probably the next toughest choice...but given his age, contract, that he fits better at PF than C....yeah, don't think it moves team-building forward as well as keeping Jonas.

When you trade your best young prospects for guys you can't confidently say make this team better in 2-3 years, then you're not building a team the right way, IMO.

I get you, and I agree for the most part actually.
When it comes to Irving, you pretty well explained my thoughts exactly.

Considering our position, it doesn't make sense to trade JV for most of those players.
The rest of the roster is just too crummy.
But I don't predict that he will be better or more valuable than but a couple of them, if any.

On potential, I take him over Griffin any day, and Harden because I worry about his game for more or less the same reasons as Irving. I bet Chris Paul would swap Griffin and Jordan for JV and Amir. I bet he would.
But the other folks are very solid and play winning, team basketball.

So, based on context I get it, but something tells me JV will not be as good as Hibbert or Noah.
But I have to admit I didn`t realize how young he was relative to these guys when he entered the league, and that`s a huge factor. Here`s hoping!

[Quirk]

I didn't even know this until yesterday, but Amir is 6-9, 210. Not really big enough to be a starting C...

Performance is a better metric than size, Amir has played plenty of C for the team, and has done very well.

[white men can't jump]

I would just like to remind you all that the point of this thread was not to play GM.
I don't think that's very interesting or realistic in this situation.

The point was to discuss what you really expect Jonas to become.
Player development, predictions, etc.

Think like a scout instead of a GM - what do you really see when you watch the guy play?
If you weren't involved with the team, what would you think of him?

-High (elite) motor
-Elite work ethic and attitude
-Good awareness
-Good bball IQ (both this and awareness will also be easier to judge given more time and responsibilities)
-Good, but not elite, athleticism
-ability to finish on both sides of the block with both hands...on hook shots and lay-ins.
-budding face-up game made possible by smooth jumper. Needs to take jumper more, and pump fake less. HE's good at both, but his decisions don't always maximize those skills.
-back-down game developing, but is there enough to know he'll be a solid if not dominant threat on the low block.
-Shows the ability to pass out of the post, but needs more work here.
-Solid screener. Needs to get a bit better, but some of his moving screen fouls are as much the wing/PG's fault, if not more. Possibly on the coach for not practicing the screen'n'roll enough.
-Rolls hard to the basket. Gives a 2nd effort if looked off (ie goes to set another screen on/off the ball on the perimeter).
-Fairly good at establishing low-post position. Tries properly to get the guy on his hip.
-Defensively gives great effort
-Needs positional work on P'n'R...the higher the p'n'r, the harder it is for him to guard it. Pretty standard for Cs though.
-Solid individual low post defender
-Decent and still visibly improving rim protector. Knows how to use length to block shots (with both hands) and can block shots without leaving his feet. Becoming good at guarding the front of the rim/middle of the paint (forcing guys to move away from the rim as they finish), and becoming better and better at staying vertical.
-Has a knack for keeping blocked shots inbounds (great for initiating fast breaks)
-Rebounds well in his zone, where his size and activity bother opponents a lot
-Doesn't rebound great out of his zone
-Attacks the glass on both ends
-Good FT shooter (thus not a late game liability in that sense)
-Turns it over too much when putting the ball on the floor on the block, especially as he still is not good at dealing with multiple defenders. Needs to protect it better.
-Has a tendency to sometimes put up "weak" attempts near the rim. An issue not uncommon for young big men as they are accustomed to being the biggest guy on the floor and not worrying about someone blocking their shot. Something you figure will diminish with experience, and doesn't significantly limit his game.
-Some foul issues. Not hugely worrying. By-product of being big and active, and something he'll have to (and I expect he will) learn to balance.

[mcHAPPY]

What the hell?

Ignorant white noise.

Don't even bother.

[KHD]

I don't have a problem with the original post in this thread, and OP has every right to his opinion on the subject. I happen to disagree, but that's fine.

However, what in the actual fuck is happening in the rest of this thread?

[Superjudge]

"think like a scout, not like a gm".

I am befuddled.

[white men can't jump]

"think like a scout, not like a gm".

I am befuddled.

I think he meant what you see in his game, as opposed to how you gauge his value in the league.