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Thread: How to Rebuild an NBA Franchise

  1. #21
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    No.

    Wrong.

    while he was definitely huge part, hiss lkill isn't what has helped the most. Duncan was a star that was intelligent, selfless, and bought into the system. his demeanor and behaviour matched the culture you need to have a winner. Simply dismissing San Antonio's success as an anomaly based upon Duncan being a great player is bullshit. He IS a great player, but a great player that REINFORCES an already existing culture.
    I think it's fair to say that his underlying talent is what has not only sustained his HOF career, but also what elevated him to his status of being such a culture-defining player and leader. Without having the talent, all the intangibles would not have had near the impact. I think talent and personality are both integral to becoming the personification of the team's culture and identity (which was started with Robinson).

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    No.

    Wrong.

    while he was definitely huge part, hiss lkill isn't what has helped the most. Duncan was a star that was intelligent, selfless, and bought into the system. his demeanor and behaviour matched the culture you need to have a winner. Simply dismissing San Antonio's success as an anomaly based upon Duncan being a great player is bullshit. He IS a great player, but a great player that REINFORCES an already existing culture.
    Actually. he is right. Before Duncan they were good, but they never once went to the finals. They've had 2 good periods and a dynasty period. The George Gervin period (multiple MVP candidate, top 50 all time), the David Robinson period (multiple MVP Candidate, top 50 all time) and then merging with the David Robinson period, the Tim Duncan period (one of THE very greatest of all time). It's no coincidence, and the Spurs will take a huge step back when Duncan retires.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    what if Duncan didn't have the personality or character to help grow such a wining culture. What if he were any of a dozen other greats his age?

    Nobody denies that the talent part wasn't important, but its an "all things being equal with regard to talent" type situation. The talent ain't what made the culture.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    what if Duncan didn't have the personality or character to help grow such a wining culture. What if he were any of a dozen other greats his age?

    Nobody denies that the talent part wasn't important, but its an "all things being equal with regard to talent" type situation. The talent ain't what made the culture.
    I can't speak for others, but I'm not arguing the importance of the natural leadership abilities or his ability to help permeate the Spurs' desired culture/identity through to his teammates. I think you're just underestimating the impact of talent. You could easily say that all things being equal with regards to personality/character, he wouldn't command the respect of his teammates without having also earned it at least partly through his contribution on the court. Talent and character go hand-in-hand in order to become a leader among men.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    For me the answer is both, you need elite talent and high level of team buy-in. I would say it's harder to find the elite talent than it is to find the personality of players who play the right way. I think it's easier to get elite talent and hope the player makes the leap to great leadership, then to get someone with amazing leadership and intangibles and hope the player makes the leap to elite talent.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Wed Nov 27th, 2013 at 04:20 AM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I think a lot of their draft success has been to take guys that are falling in the draft. It always seems like there's somebody who's falling in the draft, then San Antonio picks them, and everyone nods and says, 'damn, now he's going to be a good player'. Leonard, Blair, and Splitter were all guys who were dropping on draft night and ended up getting picked by San Antonio and turned into something useful. Probably that's having both the patience and confidence that they can develop these guys. They've certainly reached on some guys as well, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
    These are decent pieces, but San Antonio has been riding the big 3 of Parker, Ginobli and Duncan for a long time now. Ginobli's decline has hurt them, and maybe cost them the championship against Miami.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Nice thread. I like how you're breaking down the "Tank vs Anti-tank" and looking at it more thoughtfully and thoroughly.

    Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.

    With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.

    It would be expensive, require some thrifty trading for good back-ups (something we currently lack)

    Try to keep Amir, Hansborough, Ross, Val.....and deal the rest.

    Any thoughts as to this approach? (btw, I do believe that the Nets will turn it around as the year progresses, bodies get healthy and the playoffs come onto the radar)

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Pele wrote: View Post
    Nice thread. I like how you're breaking down the "Tank vs Anti-tank" and looking at it more thoughtfully and thoroughly.

    Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.

    With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.

    It would be expensive, require some thrifty trading for good back-ups (something we currently lack)

    Try to keep Amir, Hansborough, Ross, Val.....and deal the rest.

    Any thoughts as to this approach? (btw, I do believe that the Nets will turn it around as the year progresses, bodies get healthy and the playoffs come onto the radar)
    There is the CBA to work around though.

    They have not signed any free agents to anything but an exception.

    It was all trades and they resignings with Bird Rights.

    This is what you've done when you've acquired your core or trade assets to add to your established core.

    What are the Raptors going to get in return for their spare parts right now?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    There is the CBA to work around though.

    They have not signed any free agents to anything but an exception.

    It was all trades and they resignings with Bird Rights.

    This is what you've done when you've acquired your core or trade assets to add to your established core.

    [B]What are the Raptors going to get in return for their spare parts right now?
    Question. Isn't the whole premise of your tanking philosophy that we can and should ship out guys like Gay and Lowry for cap relief and picks.

    Why are you suggesting that wouldn't be a possibility if we wanted to go after marquee free-agents instead of tanking?


    Tbh I don't see anything wrong with either strategy. If we were actually able to ship out Lowry and Gay for cap relief AND tank, I'd have no qualms with drafting a Smart or Exum and then going after Gordon Hayward (who would be an excellent pairing with DD on the wing btw) in free agency.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Question. Isn't the whole premise of your tanking philosophy that we can and should ship out guys like Gay and Lowry for cap relief and picks.

    Why are you suggesting that wouldn't be a possibility if we wanted to go after marquee free-agents instead of tanking?


    Tbh I don't see anything wrong with either strategy. If we were actually able to ship out Lowry and Gay for cap relief AND tank, I'd have no qualms with drafting a Smart or Exum and then going after Gordon Hayward (who would be an excellent pairing with DD on the wing btw) in free agency.
    Because teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:

    1) cap relief
    2) prospects on rookie deals
    3) draft picks

    Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.

  11. #31
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Because teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:

    1) cap relief
    2) prospects on rookie deals
    3) draft picks

    Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.
    Also that method is not sustAinable if trading for older vets. Brooklyn has no picks (without other team having rigt to swap) and no cap space for a long time.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I can't speak for others, but I'm not arguing the importance of the natural leadership abilities or his ability to help permeate the Spurs' desired culture/identity through to his teammates. I think you're just underestimating the impact of talent. You could easily say that all things being equal with regards to personality/character, he wouldn't command the respect of his teammates without having also earned it at least partly through his contribution on the court. Talent and character go hand-in-hand in order to become a leader among men.
    Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.


  13. #33
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.

    Of course it starts with Pop, but instilling such a culture is a trickle-down process. Whether Robinson or Duncan, having a high-talent & high-character team leader acting as mentor to the young players, has been a critical part of SA's success (in terms of getting players to buy-in to the team concept and SA team culture).

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Yes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.

    worth noting:

    In addition to being named the leagueís best power forward ó despite having moved to center, a position where he finished third, several seasons ago ó Duncan was honored as the leagueís best leader with 30 percent of the vote to edge long-time rival Kevin Garnett.
    While Popovich and his assistants huddled on the court during the stoppage, Parker and Tim Duncan coached up their teammates on what to do in the ensuing defensive possession.
    "He is getting older, just like you are, and all of us, but Tim Duncan is still the backbone of the program," said Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich. "He's the guy we build around. He sets the tone for us.Tony [Parker] andManu [Ginobili] know that full well."
    ďItís fun coaching him,Ē Popovich said. ďIíve got my hands hanging on his coattail Ö and he just keeps dragging me around wherever Iím at. Every time I walk around the house once a month, I tell my wife, ĎSay thank you, Tim.í Iím serious.Ē

  15. #35
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Because teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:

    1) cap relief
    2) prospects on rookie deals
    3) draft picks

    Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Also that method is not sustAinable if trading for older vets. Brooklyn has no picks (without other team having rigt to swap) and no cap space for a long time.
    But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.

    Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.

    With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.
    See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



    See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
    Given that marquee NBA FAs have never come to Toronto, and almost never in other weak markets in general, I'm not sure it should be seen as a feasible plan. ie. "Why not go for it?" Because its a low odds proposition

    Regardless, I think Matt52 was pointing out thats not what Brooklyn did. It was all trades.
    Last edited by Craiger; Wed Nov 27th, 2013 at 11:42 AM.

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    Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:

    DeMar: 9.5M
    Amir: 7M
    Val: 3.7M
    Hansbrough:3.3M
    Ross: 2.8M
    2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M

    Total: 29.3M

    Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.

    Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    worth noting:
    Such a solid team.

    Everyone is humble and praising the next guy.

    Class act all around.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    But I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.



    See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
    Deron Williams was a trade. Lopez was a draft pick back to the awful Nets days.

    The FA plan is something you can talk about if you 'tank' and by tank I mean clear contracts for cap space.

    If your plan is to build a team through free agency while keeping this core, you are limited to the MLE/mini-MLE or minimum contracts. If you use the full MLE you are hardcapped at $4M above the salary cap.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:

    DeMar: 9.5M
    Amir: 7M
    Val: 3.7M
    Hansbrough:3.3M
    Ross: 2.8M
    2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M

    Total: 29.3M

    Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.

    Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
    There is nothing wrong with that idea in my opinion (other than banking on Utah or Detroit not to match offers) but that is not how Brooklyn built their team.

    Free agency is tough enough trying to get a player to agree to come to your team for a set amount but throw in another team having the ability to match any offer sheet and suddenly it is a serious obstacle to overcome in planning.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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