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Troubling thing i've noticed

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  • #16
    Brandon wrote:
    If you think Valanciunas is being ridden, you should have been around for Vlade Divac's first couple of years. Magic Johnson rode him like a horse, constantly barking orders at him. It was a nonstop stream of criticism and instruction. Never seen anything like it, before or since. What's happening in this situation is nothing by comparison.
    jimmie wrote: View Post
    It's about WHO is riding him. If it were Magic, it would be an entirely different deal. This is Rudy Gay and Kyle Lowry. Kyle is one thing -- he's the PG, he's supposed to be the coach on the floor, and if JV is in the wrong position, etc. it's Lowry's job to set him straight.

    Gay, on the other hand. Come on. When you're playing like he is, you keep your damn mouth shut. Period. He's only a 'veteran leader' on this team because there's no one else and the idea of 'pecking order' on this team is right messed up at the moment. You think he would have tried that crap with Marc Gasol or Zach Randolph? And in the one case last night that I think people are talking about, Gay was wrong, JV was right. Jonas was still trying to establish post position when Rudy lobbed a crap pass over the top that ended up going out of bounds for (one of his 7) turnovers. There was no way that pass should have been attempted. And Gay harps on JV about it?

    One thing you can say about Valanciunas: he seems to know how to play the right way. So it's kind of understandable, when you KNOW you're doing the right thing out there, to hear trash from teammates who can't say the same.
    Also, why would you use what you describe as the worst case of riding a teammate ever (20 years ago no less) as a measuring stick? Obviously every instance will fall short of that (it was "the worst" after all), but it doesn't mean that it's not a potential problem.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Nov 27, 2013, 01:10 PM.

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    • #17
      I agree with everything you just said. The real question is SHOULD THIS TEAM TANK OR NOT...whats everyone's thoughts on this?


      Joke

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      • #18
        didnt watch the game but with Lopez not playing shouldnt JV have dominated the Nets last night?

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        • #19
          I don't get what the big deal is. Gay clearly has more NBA experience, regardless of how 'efficient' he is. If he were playing like an all-star this year, this wouldn't even be talked about

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          • #20
            Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
            I don't get what the big deal is. Gay clearly has more NBA experience, regardless of how 'efficient' he is. If he were playing like an all-star this year, this wouldn't even be talked about
            But he doesn't play like an Allstar.
            He also doesn't make good decisions in his play.

            Those are pretty important aspects to mentoring a rookie.

            Classic do as I say not as I do.

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            • #21
              ceez wrote: View Post
              Has anyone else notices Rudy and Lowry harping on JV at times? No doubt he's had his share of mistakes but in the nets game in particular i remember Gay especially tearing into him. On a terrible TO rudy had to boot, tho i guess it could have been Val's fault. Regardless, it was the manner in which it happened.

              It's not an encouraging kind of talk either, they're clearly berating him.

              JV's looking defeated lately. Like, he has the body language of a death row inmate. I find it VERY troubling. Last thing we need is to have the one true star on the team start hating the team.

              Maybe i'm reading too much into it...
              The fact that Casey allows this to continue is just as troubling.

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              • #22
                ceez wrote: View Post
                Has anyone else notices Rudy and Lowry harping on JV at times? No doubt he's had his share of mistakes but in the nets game in particular i remember Gay especially tearing into him. On a terrible TO rudy had to boot, tho i guess it could have been Val's fault. Regardless, it was the manner in which it happened.

                It's not an encouraging kind of talk either, they're clearly berating him.

                JV's looking defeated lately. Like, he has the body language of a death row inmate. I find it VERY troubling. Last thing we need is to have the one true star on the team start hating the team.

                Maybe i'm reading too much into it...
                The fact that Casey allows it to continue is just as troubling.

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  But he doesn't play like an Allstar.
                  He also doesn't make good decisions in his play.

                  Those are pretty important aspects to mentoring a rookie.

                  Classic do as I say not as I do.
                  Fair enough.

                  But depending on the context (I didn't see the incident Ceez was talking about), I would want my veterans ripping into my youngsters (as long as they aren't being hypocritical) I highly doubt getting yelled at is 'ruining' Jonas' confidence causing him to play like crap. His inconsistent minutes or fatigue/lack of strength are the likely culprits IMO.

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                  • #24
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    By the way the teams who play "right" in the nba are selfless, committed to d, and have lots of motion with and with out the ball.

                    Miami and San Antonio come immediately to mind
                    Selfless our team is not.

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                    • #25
                      Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                      didnt watch the game but with Lopez not playing shouldnt JV have dominated the Nets last night?
                      This. JV actually was getting a lot of opportunities with the ball in the post, he just wasn't doing anything with them. His defender would just force him too far away from the basket, and then JV would try to do his usual pump-fakes that players rarely fall for and end up kicking the ball back out or turning it over.

                      Idk I'm not that sold on JV becoming an elite player. I want to see him become an efficient double-double bigman first.

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                      • #26
                        JawsGT wrote: View Post
                        I'm not liking what I'm seeing from JV. He is being dominated by just about every frontcourt he has faced thus far. Early in the season I thought that our wings and backcourt just weren't doing enough to get him involved, now I'm starting to notice that he just doesn't have the strength to deal with NBA big men. He is being out hustled and outworked, and can't get an ideal post position. The few times he does get position he often gets ignored, but nonetheless, he doesn't seem capable of becoming a dominating big man. I wonder if it's just that he may need to beef up his core and leg strength, but to me this isn't looking good...he seems less capable than he did last year. Blatche should not be able to handle a guy like JV.
                        JV had 7 pts and 7 Rebs on 3-6 shooting in 22 mins. He didn't play a great game and he has struggled recently but let's be real about what you can honestly expect from JV in this system.

                        He has had 3 games this year where he has had more than 10 FGAs, coincidentally, these include his two best games of the year and the other was a double-double. In two of those games he shot 72% and 53%. The ability is there but he isn't productive consistently. Part of that's on him but part of it is on the coach.

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                        • #27
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          My question/curiosity/wonderment is what is causing the struggles?

                          He looks more lost than he was as a rookie. That type of regression is not normal. It would be different if he came in to the NBA and never looked like he belonged. That is not JV though. He showed flashes very early last year of becoming dominant.

                          Hopefully it is just sophomore jinx and works itself out sooner than later. He has shown too much drive and talent to think otherwise. DeRozan as an example had a 3rd year regression and put together numerous strings of 7-8 games stretches where you thought he finally got it throughout his career. Hopefully right now is not one of those strings but he is in fact the real deal (at least offensively).
                          He does look lost on offense. I think I have an idea why...and it is a lack of our PnR offense, JV will set a pick and start his role, only to stop because the player didn't drive or used the pick too early and couldn't shake his man...so JV runs back out to set another pick....only to have it happen again, and again, and again. I think I saw him attempt 5 picks on one possession and nothing became of it. The kid is running in circles trying to get one PnR, pretty easy to look lost in that situation. Also might be why Amir isn't looking as good as usual either.

                          Also his confidence is shot.

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                          • #28
                            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                            He does look lost on offense. I think I have an idea why...and it is a lack of our PnR offense, JV will set a pick and start his role, only to stop because the player didn't drive or used the pick too early and couldn't shake his man...so JV runs back out to set another pick....only to have it happen again, and again, and again. I think I saw him attempt 5 picks on one possession and nothing became of it. The kid is running in circles trying to get one PnR, pretty easy to look lost in that situation. Also might be why Amir isn't looking as good as usual either.

                            Also his confidence is shot.
                            Something needs to be done to restore his confidence. We all agree JV is one of the cornerstones of the future --he will be here long after all the other players and coaches are gone. We need him to feel included and confident.

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                            • #29
                              magoon wrote: View Post
                              I honestly worry that Gay is becoming toxic.

                              Everybody was harping on Casey for last night's play and of course Casey says afterwards that it was the play he called, but does anybody else see Rudy simply saying "oh you want me to pass more, you keep telling me I don't pass enough, OKAY HERE I'M PASSING TO AMIR FOR THE GAME-WINNER" and forcing Casey to say "yeah I called that" because if he says "no, Rudy decided to fuck us over" then Rudy's trade value plummets even further and the Raps are saddled with him?

                              Because I think that's entirely possible. There's a distinct difference between being a coach who isn't good at offensive play design like Casey is and designing a play that is patently and obviously stupid, and I don't think Casey's stupid.
                              Are you serious? Rudy went left with Demar on the wing and Amir in the corner. Who told Amir to go to the corner? Where do you think the help is coming from? Ain't nobody leaving DD open for a game winner with the way he shot last night, so naturally the help rotates off Amir, so what do expect Rudy to do? Two options, take another contested 2 while being defended by two guys (I think we have all seen enough of that), or pass to the open guy in the corner for a possible winner. Casey effed up, plain and simple. The only way Amir is on the floor in that instance is if he parked UNDER the basket, not behind the 3pt line. Stupid, stupid play. Rudy did what he should have done, Casey did not. Just one of many coaching mistakes Casey made last night...we should have destroyed that piss ass team last night!

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                              • #30
                                slaw wrote: View Post
                                JV had 7 pts and 7 Rebs on 3-6 shooting in 22 mins. He didn't play a great game and he has struggled recently but let's be real about what you can honestly expect from JV in this system.

                                He has had 3 games this year where he has had more than 10 FGAs, coincidentally, these include his two best games of the year and the other was a double-double. In two of those games he shot 72% and 53%. The ability is there but he isn't productive consistently. Part of that's on him but part of it is on the coach.
                                At no point did I harp on his offence. You can't score if you don't get the ball. And you can't get the ball as a big man if you can't get post position. He is young, and right now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but what I expect out of this kid is to not get outworked, outhustled and outplayed by some secondary bigman afterthought like Blatche. Even Plumlee was frustrating him. Opponents are getting deep on JV, and he is not doing the same to them on the other end of the floor. He is playing soft.

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