Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

[p00ka]

You focus exclusively on tearing down arguments. Whether you do that well or not, I won't comment on.

Do you think Demar is a good rebounder? Do you think he is a bad rebounder? Why?

I think he's a pretty good rebounder when he goes for them, but I can't judge his devotion to the task while not knowing what role and game plan he's been given. Aside from that, I think the topic has extremely little relevance to the topic of this thread. It was admittedly raised here for no other reason than to call out people who have been supporting DeMar's improvements, through nit-picking one stat in one game, that they lost for FAR GREATER reasons.

[p00ka]

Good luck with a straight answer.

Like I said elsewhere, I return courtesy as it's given. This a fine example of yours? What's your intent here? Just more underhanded prodding? Soliciting more followers to your hood?

[stooley]

I think he's a pretty good rebounder when he goes for them, but I can't judge his devotion to the task while not knowing what role and game plan he's been given. Aside from that, I think the topic has extremely little relevance to the topic of this thread. It was admittedly raised here for no other reason than to call out people who have been supporting DeMar's improvements, through nit-picking one stat in one game, that they lost for FAR GREATER reasons.

Fair enough. I agree that when he goes for them, he seems to do ok.

And yes, this discussion does have little to do with the topic of the thread. And there were bigger problems during the game, obviously.

With regards to not knowing the game plan, etc. I think it's fair to say from watching, that there isn't a plan in place that would significantly pull him away from the basket. When I'm watching Rap games, I don't see him breaking down the court after a lot of shots or anything like that. However, since DD is only 1 rebound per game away from being about top ten at his position, small differences can matter.

On the other hand, we are comparing DD to other SGs, who generally are given similar tasks through out the game, so whether the difference arises from game plan or effort is again called into question.

[p00ka]

Fair enough. I agree that when he goes for them, he seems to do ok.

And yes, this discussion does have little to do with the topic of the thread. And there were bigger problems during the game, obviously.

With regards to not knowing the game plan, etc. I think it's fair to say from watching, that there isn't a plan in place that would significantly pull him away from the basket. When I'm watching Rap games, I don't see him breaking down the court after a lot of shots or anything like that. However, since DD is only 1 rebound per game away from being about top ten at his position, small differences can matter.

On the other hand, we are comparing DD to other SGs, who generally are given similar tasks through out the game, so whether the difference arises from game plan or effort is again called into question.

That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

- Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
- JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
- Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
- Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
- Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
- Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
- Shumbert: see Sefolosha
- Beverley: see both above
- Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.

[stooley]

That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

- Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
- JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
- Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
- Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
- Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
- Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
- Shumbert: see Sefolosha
- Beverley: see both above
- Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.

Nice post! It's definitely possible that because of all the energy demanded from Demar on the offensive side, his rebounding numbers may not be as pretty.

All those players listed did average over 25 minutes per game with their respective teams though. That is more than half of every game. While some guys may come off the bench, they're still highly featured in each team's game plan.

I'm a Demar supporter and believe that he has lots of room to grow. Those two aren't necessarily exclusive. I think he has the potential to be far better rebounder given his length and athleticism.

The stats I posted simply illustrate what Demar contributes on the boards for this team right now. Does he have potential to be more? I'd say most definitely.

My point with regard to his rebounding, is that a player who contributes mostly on offense, while still useful, isn't necessarily a star. I think he can reach that star level by rebounding a little better and playing a little tougher defense. I'm sure he'd appreciate only having to play about 36 minutes!

[Masai Ujiri]

I'll say it again. I do not understand this insistence on trading DeRozan.

I mean if you're looking at the NBA's SG crop going forwards (so not Wade/Kobe/Manu), you're not going to get one much better than DD. You've got Harden who is clearly better then guys like Afflalo and Monta who are playing a bit better right now but already in their primes. As for his peers (SGs 25 and under) the only one that has any case for being better than him is Klay Thompson.

I just don't get it. To top it all off he never causes problems in the locker room, he's well liked by his teammates and around the league. Contrary to popular belief he is not a selfish player. He's signed to a solid 4 year contract. He likes playing in Toronto, and never misses games due to injury.

At 24 he's young enough to be a part of a rebuild. Just because you're tanking doesn't mean your entire new starting 5 has to be guys on rookie scale deals.

[stooley]

I'll say it again. I do not understand this insistence on trading DeRozan.

I mean if you're looking at the NBA's SG crop going forwards (so not Wade/Kobe/Manu), you're not going to get one much better than DD. You've got Harden who is clearly better then guys like Afflalo and Monta who are playing a bit better right now but already in their primes. As for his peers (SGs 25 and under) the only one that has any case for being better than him is Klay Thompson.

I just don't get it. To top it all off he never causes problems in the locker room, he's well liked by his teammates and around the league. Contrary to popular belief he is not a selfish player. He's signed to a solid 4 year contract. He likes playing in Toronto, and never misses games due to injury.

At 24 he's young enough to be a part of a rebuild. Just because you're tanking doesn't mean your entire new starting 5 has to be guys on rookie scale deals.

I'm not calling for a trade. I trade him if there's an offer I can't turn down, and like a GM should do for any player, I'm making calls to get an idea of what his value is.

I like Derozan and think there's room for him on this team going forward.

[p00ka]

Nice post! It's definitely possible that because of all the energy demanded from Demar on the offensive side, his rebounding numbers may not be as pretty.

All those players listed did average over 25 minutes per game with their respective teams though. That is more than half of every game. While some guys may come off the bench, they're still highly featured in each team's game plan.

I'm a Demar supporter and believe that he has lots of room to grow. Those two aren't necessarily exclusive. I think he has the potential to be far better rebounder given his length and athleticism.

The stats I posted simply illustrate what Demar contributes on the boards for this team right now. Does he have potential to be more? I'd say most definitely.

My point with regard to his rebounding, is that a player who contributes mostly on offense, while still useful, isn't necessarily a star. I think he can reach that star level by rebounding a little better and playing a little tougher defense. I'm sure he'd appreciate only having to play about 36 minutes!

I totally agree that he still has significant room to grow. Thing is he agrees to that as well, and demonstrates very clearly that he continues to work on his game, year after year. The other thing is, this started over people calling others out, that support the hard working young man and enjoy what they're seeing this year, over 1 game's lack of rebounding numbers, where that wasn't the problem, then using unfair (imo, as explained) ranking lists to somehow justify shitting on our brightest light, who has improved pretty much across the board this year, and is pretty much the sole reason this team has been in any games.

[special1]

[QUOTE=p00ka;255638]That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

- Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
- JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
- Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
- Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
- Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
- Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
- Shumbert: see Sefolosha
- Beverley: see both above
- Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you just wrote - especially the bold as that really irks me as well. Let's be honest.... a lot of these guys going back and forth TRYING HARD to discredit Demar has been talking a lot of shit for months. Anyone who has been on this site for long knows the truth. Hi Matt52

I'll tell you one thing.... If Demar makes the all-star team I will call every single one of them out. You know who you are!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol


PS: I think people on both sides are becoming a little too sensitive whenever anything positive or negative is mentioned about DeRozan. Everybody - whether a professional NBA player or in any other walk of life - has strengths and weaknesses. Calling out a strength doesn't make somebody a 'fanboy' and calling out a weakness doesn't make somebody a 'hater'. Wowsers, when did the world become so black & white? Evaluating a player on the team we all support falls into a pretty substantial gray area, no?

[Axel]

This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol

Demar fan boys?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Demar fan boys?

oops, you replied before I finished my edit! haha

I think they'd respond equally with "Demar haters?" I think credit/blame falls on both sides.

[Axel]

[QUOTE=special1;255672]

That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

- Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
- JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
- Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
- Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
- Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
- Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
- Shumbert: see Sefolosha
- Beverley: see both above
- Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you just wrote - especially the bold as that really irks me as well. Let's be honest.... a lot of these guys going back and forth TRYING HARD to discredit Demar has been talking a lot of shit for months. Anyone who has been on this site for long knows the truth. Hi Matt52

I'll tell you one thing. If Demar makes the all-star team I will call every single one of them out. You know who you are!

Lance Stephenson gets discredited by you because he isn't a top scoring option on his team yet anyone who has ever played can tell you that defence is a lot more hard work than offence.

[Axel]

oops, you replied before I finished my edit! haha

I think they'd respond equally with "Demar haters?" I think credit/blame falls on both sides.

Oh I expect they will but I wanted to leave them the chance to get the last word in lol

[p00ka]

This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol


PS: I think people on both sides are becoming a little too sensitive whenever anything positive or negative is mentioned about DeRozan. Everybody - whether a professional NBA player or in any other walk of life - has strengths and weaknesses. Calling out a strength doesn't make somebody a 'fanboy' and calling out a weakness doesn't make somebody a 'hater'. Wowsers, when did the world become so black & white? Evaluating a player on the team we all support falls into a pretty substantial gray area, no?

Demar fan boys?

Or perhaps:

"how the fuck can you get ZERO rebounds in an entire quarter" ~phez,,,, a reasonable question

first response: "Maybe ask dd cause he went an entire game." ~ Matt52,,,, a back-handed slap (typical) at the Raps' player that was most certainly not to blame for that collapse, but somebody's nose was out of joint from previous day?

response to that: "Didn't we just have a thread discussing DD's rebounding prowess, and some people felt we were being too hard....hmmmm...who were they?" ~Axel,,,, that's a calling out to do battle if I ever saw one

response to that: "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home. Don't worry though. Next good game by him or Raptors they'll all be back." ~ Matt52,,, now that's just plainly insulting and throwing down the gauntlet to nobody there at the moment, but yet another back handed shot, just to be smug about one game I guess.

But no, it must be all about "Demar fan boys". Shit the challengers either ran away crying foul on them, or have degenerated it even further with childish name calling. They asked for a battle and couldn't handle what came. pffffffffffffft