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Thread: Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

  1. #501
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    I'll say it again. I do not understand this insistence on trading DeRozan.

    I mean if you're looking at the NBA's SG crop going forwards (so not Wade/Kobe/Manu), you're not going to get one much better than DD. You've got Harden who is clearly better then guys like Afflalo and Monta who are playing a bit better right now but already in their primes. As for his peers (SGs 25 and under) the only one that has any case for being better than him is Klay Thompson.

    I just don't get it. To top it all off he never causes problems in the locker room, he's well liked by his teammates and around the league. Contrary to popular belief he is not a selfish player. He's signed to a solid 4 year contract. He likes playing in Toronto, and never misses games due to injury.

    At 24 he's young enough to be a part of a rebuild. Just because you're tanking doesn't mean your entire new starting 5 has to be guys on rookie scale deals.
    Last edited by Masai Ujiri; Thu Dec 5th, 2013 at 04:33 PM.

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  3. #502
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    I'll say it again. I do not understand this insistence on trading DeRozan.

    I mean if you're looking at the NBA's SG crop going forwards (so not Wade/Kobe/Manu), you're not going to get one much better than DD. You've got Harden who is clearly better then guys like Afflalo and Monta who are playing a bit better right now but already in their primes. As for his peers (SGs 25 and under) the only one that has any case for being better than him is Klay Thompson.

    I just don't get it. To top it all off he never causes problems in the locker room, he's well liked by his teammates and around the league. Contrary to popular belief he is not a selfish player. He's signed to a solid 4 year contract. He likes playing in Toronto, and never misses games due to injury.

    At 24 he's young enough to be a part of a rebuild. Just because you're tanking doesn't mean your entire new starting 5 has to be guys on rookie scale deals.
    I'm not calling for a trade. I trade him if there's an offer I can't turn down, and like a GM should do for any player, I'm making calls to get an idea of what his value is.

    I like Derozan and think there's room for him on this team going forward.

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  5. #503
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Nice post! It's definitely possible that because of all the energy demanded from Demar on the offensive side, his rebounding numbers may not be as pretty.

    All those players listed did average over 25 minutes per game with their respective teams though. That is more than half of every game. While some guys may come off the bench, they're still highly featured in each team's game plan.

    I'm a Demar supporter and believe that he has lots of room to grow. Those two aren't necessarily exclusive. I think he has the potential to be far better rebounder given his length and athleticism.

    The stats I posted simply illustrate what Demar contributes on the boards for this team right now. Does he have potential to be more? I'd say most definitely.

    My point with regard to his rebounding, is that a player who contributes mostly on offense, while still useful, isn't necessarily a star. I think he can reach that star level by rebounding a little better and playing a little tougher defense. I'm sure he'd appreciate only having to play about 36 minutes!
    I totally agree that he still has significant room to grow. Thing is he agrees to that as well, and demonstrates very clearly that he continues to work on his game, year after year. The other thing is, this started over people calling others out, that support the hard working young man and enjoy what they're seeing this year, over 1 game's lack of rebounding numbers, where that wasn't the problem, then using unfair (imo, as explained) ranking lists to somehow justify shitting on our brightest light, who has improved pretty much across the board this year, and is pretty much the sole reason this team has been in any games.

  6. #504
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    [QUOTE=p00ka;255638]That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

    - Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
    - JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
    - Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
    - Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
    - Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
    - Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
    - Shumbert: see Sefolosha
    - Beverley: see both above
    - Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

    Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

    The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with everything you just wrote - especially the bold as that really irks me as well. Let's be honest.... a lot of these guys going back and forth TRYING HARD to discredit Demar has been talking a lot of shit for months. Anyone who has been on this site for long knows the truth. Hi Matt52

    I'll tell you one thing.... If Demar makes the all-star team I will call every single one of them out. You know who you are!
    Last edited by special1; Thu Dec 5th, 2013 at 05:50 PM.

  7. #505
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    This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

    Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

    Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

    Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

    It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

    Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

    Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


    How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol


    PS: I think people on both sides are becoming a little too sensitive whenever anything positive or negative is mentioned about DeRozan. Everybody - whether a professional NBA player or in any other walk of life - has strengths and weaknesses. Calling out a strength doesn't make somebody a 'fanboy' and calling out a weakness doesn't make somebody a 'hater'. Wowsers, when did the world become so black & white? Evaluating a player on the team we all support falls into a pretty substantial gray area, no?
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Dec 5th, 2013 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #506
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

    Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

    Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

    Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

    It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

    Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

    Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


    How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol
    Demar fan boys?
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  9. #507
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Demar fan boys?
    oops, you replied before I finished my edit! haha

    I think they'd respond equally with "Demar haters?" I think credit/blame falls on both sides.

  10. #508
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    [QUOTE=special1;255672]
    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    That's simply not true. A lot has been made here about his ranking, as provided by B-R, within a lists of GUARDS (not just SGs) and GUARD-FORWARDS, including bench players as well as starters. Before even discussing individual players and teams, there's all kinds of dissimilar roles represented. As a few glaring examples of vastly different roles of guys above him in this ranking:

    - Lance Stephenson: A starter, but what, the 4th or 5th option on offense? At that end, where DD is being relied upon to carry much of the load, Lance stands around on the 3 pt line on every possession, and catches and shoots occasionally, so of course he has tons of energy left to focus on his defense and rebounding. Extremely different role.
    - JR Smith: comes off the bench, playing many minutes against 2nd tier guys, on a bottom end rebounding team where all kinds of loose balls are floating around.
    - Webster: primarily plays SF, and like Stephenson, is 3rd-4th option at best. And like lance, his primary role at the offensive end is stand around the 3 pt line waiting for open looks, expending practically no energy. Also for a team at the bottom end of rebounding.
    - Wade: a superstar on the worst rebounding team in the league, playing off a guy named LBJ, not Gay
    - Tyreke: comes off the bench, relied upon to score half as many points as DD, and playing against subs, for far less minutes, should damn well have tons of energy to chase rebounds against subs.
    - Sefolosha: 5th option, scoring barely more than 1/4 what DD does, out there for D and the odd 3 while hanging around waiting for open looks.
    - Shumbert: see Sefolosha
    - Beverley: see both above
    - Iggy: SF, 4th option on offense?

    Those are just some of the most glaring differences in roles of these "SGs" ranked higher. I have no doubt that if each team was studied for player specialty mix, style of play that affects what SG instructions/plans are, there would easily be differences that could explain why someone gets 1 more rebound a game on average.

    The thing that irks me is that on a team that rebounding is not the problem, and defense has been much improved, the big problems are TOs and scoring, neither of which are on DeMar. With a wide variety of scoring prowess way beyond what he has ever shown, he's bordering on becoming a truly elite scorer, 12th in the league, but people continue ranting about DeMar's rebounding numbers, when he's the only bright light on this team right now, at barely 24 years old. It's all about grasping straws to justify months of "he is what he is" chanting, imo.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with everything you just wrote - especially the bold as that really irks me as well. Let's be honest.... a lot of these guys going back and forth TRYING HARD to discredit Demar has been talking a lot of shit for months. Anyone who has been on this site for long knows the truth. Hi Matt52

    I'll tell you one thing. If Demar makes the all-star team I will call every single one of them out. You know who you are!
    Lance Stephenson gets discredited by you because he isn't a top scoring option on his team yet anyone who has ever played can tell you that defence is a lot more hard work than offence.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  11. #509
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    oops, you replied before I finished my edit! haha

    I think they'd respond equally with "Demar haters?" I think credit/blame falls on both sides.
    Oh I expect they will but I wanted to leave them the chance to get the last word in lol
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  12. #510
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    This all started out of frustration that the Raptors got no defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter against Golden State.

    Upon further review, it was discovered that DeRozan didn't have any rebounds that entire game.

    Frustration was voiced that given DeRozan's physical gifts and outstanding work ethic, it was shocking that DeRozan wasn't a better rebounder, statistically speaking (in general, not just related to the Golden State game).

    Nowhere was any blame placed on DeRozan for the loss to Golden State.

    It became a battle of 'my stats trump your stats' in an attempt to win a debate about where DeRozan stacks up in terms of his rebounding prowess.

    Even those frustrated by DeRozan's rebounding were adamant that with a little dedication, he could likely improve his rebounding quite easily (due to the aforementioned physical gifts and work ethic).

    Nowhere was anybody suggesting DeRozan was a bad overall basketball player or a bad person or that he should immediately be traded, despite the surprise/frustration over his rebounding.


    How the hell did the conversation devolve into this??? lol


    PS: I think people on both sides are becoming a little too sensitive whenever anything positive or negative is mentioned about DeRozan. Everybody - whether a professional NBA player or in any other walk of life - has strengths and weaknesses. Calling out a strength doesn't make somebody a 'fanboy' and calling out a weakness doesn't make somebody a 'hater'. Wowsers, when did the world become so black & white? Evaluating a player on the team we all support falls into a pretty substantial gray area, no?
    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Demar fan boys?
    Or perhaps:

    "how the fuck can you get ZERO rebounds in an entire quarter" ~phez,,,, a reasonable question

    first response: "Maybe ask dd cause he went an entire game." ~ Matt52,,,, a back-handed slap (typical) at the Raps' player that was most certainly not to blame for that collapse, but somebody's nose was out of joint from previous day?

    response to that: "Didn't we just have a thread discussing DD's rebounding prowess, and some people felt we were being too hard....hmmmm...who were they?" ~Axel,,,, that's a calling out to do battle if I ever saw one

    response to that: "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home. Don't worry though. Next good game by him or Raptors they'll all be back." ~ Matt52,,, now that's just plainly insulting and throwing down the gauntlet to nobody there at the moment, but yet another back handed shot, just to be smug about one game I guess.

    But no, it must be all about "Demar fan boys". Shit the challengers either ran away crying foul on them, or have degenerated it even further with childish name calling. They asked for a battle and couldn't handle what came. pffffffffffffft
    Last edited by p00ka; Thu Dec 5th, 2013 at 06:13 PM.

  13. #511
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Or perhaps:

    "how the fuck can you get ZERO rebounds in an entire quarter" ~phez,,,, a reasonable question

    first response: "Maybe ask dd cause he went an entire game." ~ Matt52,,,, a back-handed slap (typical) at the Raps' player that was most certainly not to blame for that collapse, but somebody's nose was out of joint from previous day?

    response to that: "Didn't we just have a thread discussing DD's rebounding prowess, and some people felt we were being too hard....hmmmm...who were they?" ~Axel,,,, that's a calling out to do battle if I ever saw one

    response to that: "The people who have zipped up their pants and gone home. Don't worry though. Next good game by him or Raptors they'll all be back." ~ Matt52,,, now that's just plainly insulting and throwing down the gauntlet to nobody there at the moment, but yet another back handed shot, just to be smug about one game I guess.

    But no, it must be all about "Demar fan boys". Shit the challengers either ran away crying foul on them, or have degenerated it even further with childish name calling.
    hey now, I just called out axel for being one-sided in his review, but I think you were equally one-sided in your recollection lol

  14. #512
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    This mediocre play from the raptors is tearing us apart.

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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    This mediocre play from the raptors is tearing us apart.
    Actually, a bunch of millionaires we will never know and probably never meet, who operate in a completely different world from us cannot tear us apart. Only deluded identification with an entity put together to sell diverse products through on and off air advertising can tear us apart. And that is on the various souls who take this shit so seriously. Grown men playing games for an average payment of $52,000 per game, for 48 minutes of effort. Why does anyone invest so much into this.

    The members of this forum are closer to each other in every real sense than they ever will be to any of the players they so eloquently go on about. Yet they are happy to tear each other apart, while they worship an elite group of people who are so different from them that they have NO common ground.

    One of lifes mysteries.

    Grow up people. IT'S A Game.

  16. #514
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  17. #515
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Did I miss anything offensive?

  18. #516
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Did I miss anything offensive?

    nope, I shared that clip because it had some interesting interviews.
    .
    .
    were you talking to me?

  19. #517
    Raptors Republic Starter consmap's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Did I miss anything offensive?
    We didn't really have an offense in the 4th quarter.

    ...

    Wait, you're not talking about the game, are you?

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  21. #518
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    ....mistake, corrected next post

  22. #519
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post

    Lance Stephenson gets discredited by you because he isn't a top scoring option on his team yet anyone who has ever played can tell you that defence is a lot more hard work than offence.
    The post had absolutely nothing to do with discrediting anybody. You provided a ranking, suggesting these players are credible comparables for rebounding purposes. Someone suggested that this "ranking" was a ranking within his SG equals. I posted fairly detailed reasoning why it's like ranking an apple among some apples, but also among some oranges and pears. All you've got as a retort to that post is that sermon totally misrepresenting what I said? Comprehension problem or purposely attempting to re-direct the conversation?

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