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Thread: An Open Letter To Masai Ujiri

  1. #181
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    One common thing that has been done lately with rebuilds is to accumulate assets/cap-space and trade for proven stars. examples are Boston big3 and Houston-harden(which attracted Dwight). So even if they don't end up with a superstar in the draft, with proper cap management and asset accumulation, the possibilities are endless

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  3. #182
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Matt, not sure if this has been asked before, but im asking anyways, and this is not a slight question, i really do want to know.

    Lets say the Raptors tank, get rid of Gay, DD, Lowry. Losing record, top 3 pick. What if the pick turns out to be a dud. So another losing season, and again high draft pick. This time, the pick turns out to be a franchise player, potential all-star, etc etc.

    How do the Raptors move forward from here?

    What would be the general plan that they should follow?

    Coz everybody seems to agree that tanking is the solution (me included) but nobody seems to outline a plan that should be followed incase A (pick is a franchise player) or B (bust) happens (me included).

    I just saw CalgaryRaps log in so you can answer this too dude, hehehe
    If he went #1, there is something there that made him go #1. He is still going to have value even if he is a dud.

    Thabeet was given how many chances?
    Kwame?
    Darko?

    So you have a trade asset that has even sparkle that a GM might think he can make him shine.


    If the Raptors do get a franchise talent in 2015 draft, assuming they haven't pissed away their cap space they can still trade assets for established player or go in to free agency or, my suggestion, keep adding value contracts/picks (i.e. assets) and go in to 2015-2016. LIkely 2015/16 is a rough year too but you have 2 first round draft picks in 2016, the exposure for the ASG, and hopefully a lot of cap space and assets.


    Forget tank or not tank for a moment, building is the same no matter what "method" you take:

    1) remove bad contracts,
    2) find value contracts (i.e. players who produce much more than they are paid - Hansbrough, for example),
    3) find players with "potential" where ever possible: 1st round, 2nd round, D-League, other teams benches, Europe, China

    The whole goal is to find something worth building with and around - if that comes via draft, trade, or free agency so be it.


    It is just the odds and probabilities, for the Raptors, is that that piece worth building around is going to be found in the draft. If your team has good talent evaluators, the higher the better. People might not remember but Westbrook was supposedly a reach at the time. Some reaches end up looking like Waiters or MKG while others look like Westbrook.

    *EDIT*

    Realistically the window for the Raptors to continue building in the scenario Gary Payton laid out is 2020. Why? Lets say JV an Ross are resigned at $20M for two, the 2014 pick was a bust so he doesn't matter, therefore it won't be until 2019/20 season when the franchise player needs to be extended. This is the value of good contracts and rookie deals: talent producing more than their paycheque. Bird Rights ensure you can keep them regardless of the CBA and it gives you an enticing roster to a possible free agent because he knows team can be kept together or it gives you an enticing collection of assets for a team looking to trade while not taking back as much money.

    Anyways, that is my .02.

    SUmmary: A bust doesn't change how you build.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Dec 6th, 2013 at 07:52 PM.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #183
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Matt, not sure if this has been asked before, but im asking anyways, and this is not a slight question, i really do want to know.

    Lets say the Raptors tank, get rid of Gay, DD, Lowry. Losing record, top 3 pick. What if the pick turns out to be a dud. So another losing season, and again high draft pick. This time, the pick turns out to be a franchise player, potential all-star, etc etc.

    How do the Raptors move forward from here?

    What would be the general plan that they should follow?

    Coz everybody seems to agree that tanking is the solution (me included) but nobody seems to outline a plan that should be followed incase A (pick is a franchise player) or B (bust) happens (me included).

    I just saw CalgaryRaps log in so you can answer this too dude, hehehe
    This is exactly my concern.

  5. #184
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If he went #1, there is something there that made him go #1. He is still going to have value even if he is a dud.

    Thabeet was given how many chances?
    Kwame?
    Darko?
    Bargs!!!
    So you have a trade asset that has even sparkle that a GM might think he can make him shine.
    Fixed it for you. Raps held onto Barg's for WAY too long to the point where it seemed like the whole league believed him to be a "bust". Now the return on him wasn't great, but it probably would have been much better if he had been shopped 2-3 years ago when several posters here where making arguments that we knew what we were going to get from him. How long did it take for him to get that bust label? 4-5-6-7 years? Plenty of time to trade him for other assets before other GMs catch on.

    His success in NY is mixed. He did just get his first ejection of his carer, and his teammates are happy to see some emotion from him (sound familiar?), but I don't think he's really changed his game at all OR is going to suddenly become an impact player. High draft picks are seen to have potential, and you hear the argument all the time "maybe the player just needs a new environment" I think wolves draft pick that was traded to Sacramento is another example... young players always have upside.

    Look at Bennet, I think we all (or most of us, including the pundits) think he was a reach as a number 1 overall pick, and despite his DISMAL performance thus far there are plenty people in the forums who are hoping that he and some other young cavs talent is traded to us for gay.

    Last example, look at the careers of former trailblazers, cut short by injury. Roy signed with Wolves for half a season before retiring again, and Oden signed with the Heat this year. Oden in particular has a terrible injury history, and yet the heat gave him another shot, because of his history his contract is cheap, BUT he still has the skills that made him the number 1 pick, cheap contract + potential = low risk, high reward. Which pretty much every low draft pick has, even if they under perform.

    Asset management.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Dec 7th, 2013 at 07:57 AM.
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  6. #185
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    too early to call Bennet a bust. He was drafted by the wrong team.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post

    Lets say the Raptors tank, get rid of Gay, DD, Lowry. Losing record, top 3 pick. What if the pick turns out to be a dud. So another losing season, and again high draft pick. This time, the pick turns out to be a franchise player, potential all-star, etc etc.
    Here the answer nobody seems to be giving.

    If Toronto gets rid of Gay and Lowry, its because they aren't good players, not because of a "Tank".

    You ain't winning the prize with Lowry as your well paid PG, nor with the inefficiency and lack of focus in your main guy if he's Rudy Gay.

    Its called assessing and rebuilding.

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  10. #187
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Here the answer nobody seems to be giving.

    If Toronto gets rid of Gay and Lowry, its because they aren't good players, not because of a "Tank".

    You ain't winning the prize with Lowry as your well paid PG, nor with the inefficiency and lack of focus in your main guy if he's Rudy Gay.

    Its called assessing and rebuilding.
    Nicely said. Lowry would want about 9-10 million to stay here. Gay would be 12-15 million a year after his contract expires, add to that 9.5 for DD, you are already at 30-35 million of your salary Cap for 3 of your starters. Can you win with this 3 guys ? Answer is NO.

  11. #188
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    Tbh if Gay and Lowry were actually playing well, trading them would be tanking. As far as I'm concerned, trading them right now isn't even tanking, it's just smart.

    But tbh neither of them suit their roles, and Gay is overpaid for his. Rudy is not a 1st option on any team worth a damn, and Lowry imo isn't good enough to be a starting PG on a championship team unless you have an elite playmaking wing.

  12. #189
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Tbh if Gay and Lowry were actually playing well, trading them would be tanking. As far as I'm concerned, trading them right now isn't even tanking, it's just smart.

    But tbh neither of them suit their roles, and Gay is overpaid for his. Rudy is not a 1st option on any team worth a damn, and Lowry imo isn't good enough to be a starting PG on a championship team unless you have an elite playmaking wing.
    They kind of are.

    Rudy, while shooting poorly overall, is having a pretty good season in other respects (in terms of base stats, and of course for him), and even shooting a pretty high 3% for him. He's pretty much the same player he's always been, at worst.

    Same for Lowry, who's playing better than he did most of last year, and pretty similarly to how he played in Houston.

    Neither guy can really perform at a much higher level (if at all) than what we're seeing.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Dec 7th, 2013 at 03:44 PM.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Boxscoregeeks analysis of Raps production thus far:



    The guys in blue are actually doing very well. Most of them are no worse than close to average. If all playing time on a team was given to players who produced 0.100 exactly (average player), the team would win 41 games*. This data suggests, and don't laugh because it might actually be true, that the Raps would have won a lot more games by now if all of Gay's minutes had been given to Acy. And this is not the only metric that says Acy's an awesome player. His Oliverian numbers are great too. ORTG : DRTG is +20, in Drummond's range.

    They'd still be hurt by Valanciunas's general suckage right now, but they could trade for an average center like Asik, who is right around .100 right now, and then they might even get well above 41 wins, possibly even above 50.

    Anyway, the Raps tradition of giving a lot of minutes to at least one player who's producing negative wins continues.

    * total regulation minutes per team divided by 48 minutes, and then multiplied by .100 is one way to do it. (19680 / 48 * .100 = 41 wins)
    Analytics!

  14. #191
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    We don't pay no attention to that

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Boxscoregeeks analysis of Raps production thus far:



    The guys in blue are actually doing very well. Most of them are no worse than close to average. If all playing time on a team was given to players who produced 0.100 exactly (average player), the team would win 41 games*. This data suggests, and don't laugh because it might actually be true, that the Raps would have won a lot more games by now if all of Gay's minutes had been given to Acy. And this is not the only metric that says Acy's an awesome player. His Oliverian numbers are great too. ORTG : DRTG is +20, in Drummond's range.

    They'd still be hurt by Valanciunas's general suckage right now, but they could trade for an average center like Asik, who is right around .100 right now, and then they might even get well above 41 wins, possibly even above 50.

    Anyway, the Raps tradition of giving a lot of minutes to at least one player who's producing negative wins continues.

    * total regulation minutes per team divided by 48 minutes, and then multiplied by .100 is one way to do it. (19680 / 48 * .100 = 41 wins)
    Neato stuff.

    I like Acy and was hoping to see him get a bit more burn this year but he's definitely a limited role guy. Every team needs them though.

    #unleashthepower3

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    I wonder why Quincy Acy doesn't get a lot of burn. I feel like he deserves to at least be in contention for role player minutes. Obviously, he doesn't project to be a game changer given his size and skill set. However, he's been effective when he does play & I feel like he hasn't gotten a fair shot under Casey.

    He can stretch it to the 3 point line -- as a power forward. He's athletic enough to cause disruption on the pick and rolls & he plays with ridiculous energy. I've always wondered why he hasn't gotten any burn. There have been no indication that he's a cancer in the locker room either.
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    It's because using Acy would be a creative way to stretch the floor without sacrificing size, increase the hustle on defense, and he's a unselfish player whose presence makes the team a bit better. It'd be good coaching, and I think just saying those words makes Casey reach for his allergy medication.

    I'm really happy to see Lowry so high on there. I don't get why he can't get enough love here: He's feisty, he's pretty good, and he's on one the best non-rookie contracts there is. 14 and 6.6 for 6 mil on an expiring contract is one of the best contracts Colangelo brought onto the raptors, and I'd do that trade again over and over again.

    Looking at this graphic, I basically see it this way: Trading Rudy is like trading bargs, it's going to help the team and the chemistry without hurting the performance. Trade Lowry, that's tanking

  18. #195
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    It's because using Acy would be a creative way to stretch the floor without sacrificing size, increase the hustle on defense, and he's a unselfish player whose presence makes the team a bit better. It'd be good coaching, and I think just saying those words makes Casey reach for his allergy medication.

    I'm really happy to see Lowry so high on there. I don't get why he can't get enough love here: He's feisty, he's pretty good, and he's on one the best non-rookie contracts there is. 14 and 6.6 for 6 mil on an expiring contract is one of the best contracts Colangelo brought onto the raptors, and I'd do that trade again over and over again.

    Looking at this graphic, I basically see it this way: Trading Rudy is like trading bargs, it's going to help the team and the chemistry without hurting the performance. Trade Lowry, that's tanking
    I'm actually fine with Lowry right now. He's one of the biggest reasons why we are not worse than we are & I respect him for that. My problem with him is ... by the time our team actually establishes its core that will be competitive [or] at least I hope ... Lowry would be over 30. That suggests to me that he is not the long-term answer for the position.

    I worry about his health, his size & his age. He's in his prime right now & we most likely won't be competitive for a few years. He's only going to get older & his lack of size will become more evident. So moving forward, I don't see him here long-term.

    I'm assuming of course that we're blowing this shit up. If we're going the re-tooling route, then yeah, he's fine right now until we decide to blow this shit up.

    But I agree. The fastest way to tank is to trade Lowry for a non-point guard & let Buycks, Augustine & Stone run the show.

    P.S. Stone ranks high in the chart above -- for win shares & that's a surprise to me. Based on what I've seen, he's pretty much a defensive specialist -- when we need someone to contain a point guard. Other than that, he's pretty much invisible to me & I swear I haven't seen him make a shot.
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  19. #196
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    It's because using Acy would be a creative way to stretch the floor without sacrificing size, increase the hustle on defense, and he's a unselfish player whose presence makes the team a bit better. It'd be good coaching, and I think just saying those words makes Casey reach for his allergy medication.

    I'm really happy to see Lowry so high on there. I don't get why he can't get enough love here: He's feisty, he's pretty good, and he's on one the best non-rookie contracts there is. 14 and 6.6 for 6 mil on an expiring contract is one of the best contracts Colangelo brought onto the raptors, and I'd do that trade again over and over again.

    Looking at this graphic, I basically see it this way: Trading Rudy is like trading bargs, it's going to help the team and the chemistry without hurting the performance. Trade Lowry, that's tanking
    #1 reason to deal Lowry: he's an expiring deal and not likely be a bargain re-signing

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  21. #197
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    I say you make calls with Lowry's expiring. You get a sure-fire prospect, or a 1st and someone decent? Do it. You throw him in with Rudy Gay and maybe Ross for some teams available star (actual star, not god damn rudy) as well as a bad contract? Do it. Otherwise? I say you re-sign Lowry to a reasonable deal. Not because he's a world beater, or that he'll be part of a long-term core, but because we need a PG and on the FA market you're going to overpay drastically. The number one thing to remember about Ujiri is that extended doesn't mean he won't trade you. Remember the McGee trade?

  22. #198
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    no trades!!!

    shitty play #1 pick, lowry off books, no replacement, play season, suck again, Gay off books:

    DD
    high pick
    high pick
    JV
    TH
    Amir
    Firlds
    who knows.... and a shit load more cap than ya have now.


    I like it

  23. #199
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    If Lowry is expiring and we are sucking anyway...wouldn't it make sense to trade him for a pick? Even if it is a late first?

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  25. #200
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    If possible. but letting him walk is certainly not gonna hurt.

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