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Thread: To all those who say Rudy is the problem, I say nay nay.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Default To all those who say Rudy is the problem, I say nay nay.

    I have noticed a lot of vitriol recently spouted at the lightening rod that has become Rudy Gay. Why is that? Is he not a useful NBA player? Does he not possess skills that we, as fans of this team, crave? Rudy is a great player who I would want on my team (though ideally on a contract more in line with the role he SHOULD play on a team).

    To me the real problem is coaching. All those who say that Rudy needs to give up the ball more and play with his team mates more, chuck less, etc... All of these end with Rudy's decision on the court, but it starts with coaches and their philosophy or vision of basketball. Rudy's tendencies on the court can be corrected. It may not be easy, but playing time and play calling are ways to get a players attention.

    When Casey says that he "trusts Rudy to make the right decision", he is yielding his control of the team to a player who has not shown that he can make the right decision. Rudy is not Lebron. You can't just put him on the floor and expect perfection (or close to it). He needs to be coached. Its kinda like this recent (decades-long) trend of "free-range" parenting. Parents prefer to be friends with their kids, instead of parents to their kids, and then wonder where behavoiral problems and lack of discipline come from. Kids, students, players need to be led and taught. Casey needs to coach this team, and get them to play according to his philosophy. That might mean that Rudy becomes a role player instead of the main guy (which I would prefer). Whatever it is, Casey needs to take control of this team, and stop just putting players out there and expect chaos to spontaneously find order and intention.

    I'm not saying that Casey isn't that guy. He hasn't been that guy recently though that's for sure. He needs to take control of this team and lead them. Teach them. And that means holding the players accountable. If he can't, then MU needs to recognize the deficiencies and make a change.

    So please, don't boo Rudy. Don't boo any of our players for that matter. They are not the problem. They are the product of their environment.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    I agree that Rudy gets more hate than he should. He's a solid defender who makes a lot of those effort plays that help win games.

    On the other hand, Rudy is a problem. So is Casey. IF Rudy had a different mindset and was on a contract worth closer to 9-10 mil, than he's a great asset to have.

    I don't believe that Rudy lacks skills, but to be honest, it isn't just the coaching or the personnel around him. Rudy's been a chucker since his days in Memphis.

    He's got to be realistic with himself and decide now whether he ever wants to become more in this league or not.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    When Rudy was asked about coming off the bench for this team last week, his response: “Me? Would I ever come off the bench?” he said, when I asked him about it. “No. I think this team needs me in the starting lineup. Maybe on a different team, maybe in the long run… But here? No.”

    That says everything I need to know about Rudy Gay. He believes in himself beyond comprehension and views himself as the best player on this team.

    Casey will be gone next year, no doubt about it, but Rudy Gay is a huge part of the problem for this team. Both on the court and in the front office.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    When the trade was made last year, I believed that Rudy's negative qualities could be reigned in with proper coaching to help him become a more efficient player. He does possess a lot of skills, and despite his flaws, he's still the best SF we've had since Rose.

    But I don't believe Rudy can change anymore. I'm sure Casey emphasizes the importance of shot selection, and momentum killing missed long-twos. Rudy isn't a toddler who needs to be disciplined with his favourite toy taken away. He's a grown man who sees his team losing more games than they win. That should be motivation enough....but it isn't. I doubt that will ever change.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    In the right situation, you can always get the best out of people. However, as it stands, we have no veteran leaders to set our guys straight. Rudy and Demar have free reign on offense & our coach has nothing to say about it. Maybe if we had an Andre Miller -- a secondary coach on the roster, we'd see a more mature focus from our 'stars'. Seriously, who can say anything to these two? Buycks? Stone? Novak? Gray? No one can touch Demar & Rudy -- and to me that's the ultimate test to determine what they are made of & it seems to me that the leadership skills are lacking.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Beagle's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with the OP. Look at it this way: Rudy earns/costs a lot more money than Casey, AND he is stuck here with an un-tradeable contract. We can't change this, only try to get the most out of him. What we can change is the coaching Rudy must play under. I cannot believe every coach would give Rudy the same free reign to chuck up prayers and play almost strictly iso-ball as Casey does. Surely he will do what a coach tells him, and surely Casey is telling him to watch his shot selection and pass more, but it seems to have no effect and he isn't having his minutes reduced.

    There are only two interpretations: Either Casey cannot effectively coach (Rudy) or else Casey is trying to tank. I think the second interpretation is highly unlikely. Even if a tank was underway, the effort to lose would have been cast aside once a 27-point lead was established. To intentionally lose from such a great lead would cause suspicion one must think. Highly illogical, Captain.

    So, I say make the best of Rudy and fire Casey. Make one of the assistants coach for the rest of the year as a tryout. (Nick Nurse please!) If MU really wants to tank, make that guy's job impossible by trading Lowry without replacing him. Besides, Casey is stinking in multiple ways, not just his inability to get a modicum of value out of Rudy Gay.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Rudy is a black hole who does a lot of other things.

    He is a player with holes in his game.

    He is a player who makes probably 50% more than he should.

    But he is still a useful player.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Isn't Casey on a one-year contract? I think there is a possibility that Casey is coaching based on some level of input from his superiors. It's not like an NCAA coach that can mostly dictate minute allocation, style of play etc. as he sees fit. I assume that Casey (and most coaches) at the NBA level, take some amount of input from front office. So in that sense, I wouldn't expect Casey to say in the media that Rudy needs to be better, or for him to start a rift with Rudy behind closed doors. Maybe Casey is calling way more of the shots than I give him credit for. In that case, he should be gone. No one should rationally support what Rudy brings to the team.

    Also, its not coaches that make the call to tank, right?

    I don't necessarily think Casey is some elite coaching mind. But unless his replacement is a shooting coach, what significant change would take place? My best explanation as to why Casey has such a long leash with Rudy would be that there is a hope from front office that RG starts improving ("reaching his potential") and that some poor GM takes a chance on him. Short of that, I think you just have to deal with his level of play until he is no longer under contract.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Casey is in the final year of his deal.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Rudy Gay would be valuable if he took about 7 less shots per game, performally of the long 2 variety.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    'Melo was most effective when placed in the perfect situation of having strong personalities (leadership) that complemented his weaknesses and pushed him to be a better all around player: Mike Woodson (defensive coach), Jason Kidd, and Tyson Chandler (great defensive vets with the credibility of just coming off a Dallas championship) were able to coax more out of Anthony than anybody else.

    Obviously, 'Melo didn't really "learn" anything - he's reverted to all of his old bad habits and the Knicks are inefficient, defensively terrible, and losing.

    Rudy Gay is a similar but much, much less talented player. He'd need to be surrounded by a strong coach with credibility and good veteran leadership that he respects. Due to his overall talent level, he'd also need to be the 2nd or 3rd option on his team. That's the only context I could see him having a really positive impact. Otherwise, he'll continue to take almost as much off the table as he puts on it.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    'Melo was most effective when placed in the perfect situation of having strong personalities (leadership) that complemented his weaknesses and pushed him to be a better all around player: Mike Woodson (defensive coach), Jason Kidd, and Tyson Chandler (great defensive vets with the credibility of just coming off a Dallas championship) were able to coax more out of Anthony than anybody else.

    Obviously, 'Melo didn't really "learn" anything - he's reverted to all of his old bad habits and the Knicks are inefficient, defensively terrible, and losing.

    Rudy Gay is a similar but much, much less talented player. He'd need to be surrounded by a strong coach with credibility and good veteran leadership that he respects. Due to his overall talent level, he'd also need to be the 2nd or 3rd option on his team. That's the only context I could see him having a really positive impact. Otherwise, he'll continue to take almost as much off the table as he puts on it.
    Bingo!! well said.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    'Melo was most effective when placed in the perfect situation of having strong personalities (leadership) that complemented his weaknesses and pushed him to be a better all around player: Mike Woodson (defensive coach), Jason Kidd, and Tyson Chandler (great defensive vets with the credibility of just coming off a Dallas championship) were able to coax more out of Anthony than anybody else.

    Obviously, 'Melo didn't really "learn" anything - he's reverted to all of his old bad habits and the Knicks are inefficient, defensively terrible, and losing.

    Rudy Gay is a similar but much, much less talented player. He'd need to be surrounded by a strong coach with credibility and good veteran leadership that he respects. Due to his overall talent level, he'd also need to be the 2nd or 3rd option on his team. That's the only context I could see him having a really positive impact. Otherwise, he'll continue to take almost as much off the table as he puts on it.
    Although I certainly wouldn't bet on it happening as a GM or a fan, Rudy could one day turn his career around. He's very talented and I mostly respect the way he plays other than when he has the ball.

    It's a mental block that he can overcome if he wants to. It's almost sad to see him waste his career like this.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Although I certainly wouldn't bet on it happening as a GM or a fan, Rudy could one day turn his career around. He's very talented and I mostly respect the way he plays other than when he has the ball.
    Yeah I mostly respect Lil Wayne, other than when he's rapping talking or performing.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    'Melo was most effective when placed in the perfect situation of having strong personalities (leadership) that complemented his weaknesses and pushed him to be a better all around player: Mike Woodson (defensive coach), Jason Kidd, and Tyson Chandler (great defensive vets with the credibility of just coming off a Dallas championship) were able to coax more out of Anthony than anybody else.

    Obviously, 'Melo didn't really "learn" anything - he's reverted to all of his old bad habits and the Knicks are inefficient, defensively terrible, and losing.

    Rudy Gay is a similar but much, much less talented player. He'd need to be surrounded by a strong coach with credibility and good veteran leadership that he respects. Due to his overall talent level, he'd also need to be the 2nd or 3rd option on his team. That's the only context I could see him having a really positive impact. Otherwise, he'll continue to take almost as much off the table as he puts on it.
    Hollins had the leash on him. And this is exactly how MU needs to sell Rudy to another team....make it more about his lack of fit on the Raptors rather than his stats.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Rudy is A problem, but THE problem is much larger than Rudy.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Rudy is a black hole who does a lot of other things.

    He is a player with holes in his game.

    He is a player who makes probably 50% more than he should.

    But he is still a useful player.
    I agree with all of this. I also understand the tendency to judge a players contribution:salary ratio. In this case, Rudy is so obscenely over paid that you just eat it and don't think about it again. Especially since we didn't negotiate him to that salary. All we want is the player. So use the player wherever he is best suited in whatever capacity he is best suited for. I think he is 3rd option starter or running the 2nd unit.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Rudy needs to go to the bench. Why make it palpable for him to pick up his option? That said, that could be bad for trying to woo free agents in this town. Memphis didn't want him, we're stuck with him, so the bench it is.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Rudy is absolutely tradeable. Here are some plausible examples:

    PHX and TO
    Rudy Gay for Okafor + 2014 1st round from Indiana + Frye

    Phx will have 23.6 mill on the books add Gays 20, and the CAP is looking to be 62.1, so they are left with 19 mil to pick up Bledsoe's RFA, and sign their draft picks. After that they would have a massive expiring to set them up nicely for the 2015 FA class, which they may be able to attract if they play well and are in the playoffs in 2014 (which they should be)

    TO and Philly

    Gay +/- 2017 2nd round pick from NYK for Evan Turner + J. Rich +/- 2014 second round pick from Houston

    I don't think Philly is looking to resign Turner, so why not get a pretty good SF and cut out Richardsons player option? Definitely a possibility

    TO and Charlotte

    Gay for Ben Gordon + Haywood + 2014 1st round for Portland (which will be late first) + 2016 SA second round

    Charlotte is looking to compete now and have no major players outside of Sessions to resign at the end of the year so they can absorb Gay's contract without hampering their ability to keep the team together. Gay provides some legit scoring if they use him as a sixth man. I think this is a very real trade possibility.

    TO and Cleveland

    Gay + Amir for Bynum + Bennett + 2015 1st round from Miami + 2015 Second round from Portland

    They are in desperate need of a a legit SF and Amir is a freaking solid PF. Great for their win now approach. TO gets 3 great assets and cap flexibilty.

    In short, Rudy Gay is absolutely tradeable. I hope he is gone shortly after Dec. 15th when the Free Agent trade ban lifts

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I agree that Rudy gets more hate than he should. He's a solid defender who makes a lot of those effort plays that help win games.

    On the other hand, Rudy is a problem. So is Casey. IF Rudy had a different mindset and was on a contract worth closer to 9-10 mil, than he's a great asset to have.

    I don't believe that Rudy lacks skills, but to be honest, it isn't just the coaching or the personnel around him. Rudy's been a chucker since his days in Memphis.

    He's got to be realistic with himself and decide now whether he ever wants to become more in this league or not.
    I agree with this post pretty much entirely. I might add this; Rudy Gay has an incredible amount of positive gifts going for him. When he makes the game easy for himself, utilizing screens properly and hitting high percentage shots, he's great, and on the defensive end, I love Rudy gay, I love the help he gives on the glass.

    The issue I have with him is that he just doesn't seem mentally committed. He allows himself to get put in bad situations, yet doesn't seem to want to give up on them by moving the ball. He also, in the "chucker spirit", is always looking for his opportunity, its almost as if he cannot go more than one possession without having to have his own go at scoring. That, to me, is a MASSIVE problem in the sport of Basketball, especially when its coming from your best prospect to play that role as the leader.

    Its a frustration, because for me, if that guy got his head in it, played within his own skills, PATIENTLY, and bought into pure and simple efficient team ball, he'd be worth every bit of his contract.

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