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Thread: Nelson Mandela: The World Loses an Icon.

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    The very basis of capitalism is freedom, thereby making it inherent.
    please, expand.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Joey, you can take anyone out of context and discredit them. The guy is hardcore against vacines and links the vacine blitz to the ruling class. He verifies this stance with documents(memos, scientific papers, etc.) and field experts.

    He also has given examples of multiple people in power of being child predators. Again, documents and expert interviews.

    While I do not know exactly what you pulled that stuff from because you gave no context, I've read enough of his message to know the above.

    As for the Boston bombings, I started this by saying I don't agree with everything he says. I do agree with truthful, factual information though. From my experience its very evident when he is providing facts and when he is speculating because he flat out tells you and tells you where to find the info for yourself. Presentation of facts and speculation based on fact are common place everywhere in society. It happens all the time on mainstream television. I mean the Iraq war was fueled based on mdia speculation and sensationalism. When we got to the truth years later we found out that the proof for war was bogus but the million some odd people were already dead...

    I trust Alex Jones no more than anyone else, but he does at times make go points and typically his detractors attempt to discredit him for how he acts, and by taking him out of context rather than facing off by challenging the substance within the message. The medium is irrelevant, it's the facts that matter.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Awesome comments, Joey, Enlightenment and White Men Can't Jump!

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Awesome comments, Joey, Enlightenment and White Men Can't Jump!
    I just feel like a lot of comments in this thread totally lack in terms of foundational knowledge of poli sci, sociology, anthropology (in terms of social evolution), philosophy....anyway.

    I mean, you have people comparing the US to China and shit like that. Comparing both, obviously, since roughly around US independence. But that China was in no way representative of modern China, or rather since the Maoist victory and formation of the PRC. It's like comparing the experiences of an old man to that of a teenager.

    Where was the US roughly half a century in its development? Still not very far along economically (they really didn't break out til the 20th century as the global hegemonic power). Slaughtering indigenous people by the millions (far worse than anything that's happened in China since they became the PRC). Enslaving Africans.....Basically, they accomplished far less in that span, both economically and socially, than China. Now, they did have democracy, and much better freedoms for those who held democratic rights...but not everyone had such rights until well into the 20th century.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Dec 11th, 2013 at 01:35 PM.

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  6. #65
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Joey, you can take anyone out of context and discredit them. The guy is hardcore against vacines and links the vacine blitz to the ruling class. He verifies this stance with documents(memos, scientific papers, etc.) and field experts.

    He also has given examples of multiple people in power of being child predators. Again, documents and expert interviews.

    While I do not know exactly what you pulled that stuff from because you gave no context, I've read enough of his message to know the above.

    As for the Boston bombings, I started this by saying I don't agree with everything he says. I do agree with truthful, factual information though. From my experience its very evident when he is providing facts and when he is speculating because he flat out tells you and tells you where to find the info for yourself. Presentation of facts and speculation based on fact are common place everywhere in society. It happens all the time on mainstream television. I mean the Iraq war was fueled based on mdia speculation and sensationalism. When we got to the truth years later we found out that the proof for war was bogus but the million some odd people were already dead...

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    You can point to the low hanging fruit of Iraq. But you are referring to one form of Media as lies and bias, yet it seems to me you are giving Alex Jones way to much credibility than he deserves.

    The Tornado conspiracy theory is almost on the same line as boob-quake in terms of ridiculousness. I want to know which Experts were consulted on that one.

    Its clear to me that Alex is actually another version of the media that you shoot down. He is fishing for clicks, and is compromising truth and journalistic decency in order to do so.
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    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    No they don't. That's why we had a great depression and decades of protest in Western Nations (roughly a century? is it even really close to done or has the scale just diminished?). Capitalism immediately creates a situation of high potential for exploiter-exploitee dynamics, which inherently makes it extremely difficult to have any balanced level of freedoms. Without social programs to offset such dynamics, we'd be living in a very very different world. So you can thank communists for that.
    What freedoms are you referring to? And what exactly do you mean by 'balanced level of freedoms'?

    Wealth redistribution does not create a higher standard of living, maybe in the short term it does for some but what happens when people one the drive to produce because they can't reap the benefits of their hard work, sacrifice and risk? What encourages them to innovate and create new products to or services that people want? If not for capitalism we wouldn't have the many things we take for granted today. We wouldn't even be having this discussion on this forum because there would be no reason to create the means to do it. Everything we take for granted today started with a person coming up with an idea creating a product and selling it for yes the evil word PROFIT. In doing so he or she improved the life of the purchaser of that product. It is the freedom of people and business to exchange goods servics and money that drives innovation and promotes personal and social growth. That is what makes capitalism great. I admit it's not perfect but it is the best system ever created by man

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Oh oh.

    I think Apollo and and Uncle_Si might have a point:



    Beware the Master Race Frankenstein Radio Controls! Distribute Widely!



    @whitemen, yeah, I try my best to only discuss political theory with those that actually have some skin in the game, in terms of study, and not some tedious blowhard at the Christmas party. The three of you have done really well!

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  10. #68
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Come on Joey, most stories come from one source, like the associated press and is then picked up (repeated) by all the outlets. You're getting no variety and no one is challenging and investigating like journalists used to do. Typically what is fact is the words from one man's mouth. Why is that?

    You never get the full story unless you go to the people investigating the stories, those asking questions. If you are someone who asks questions in today's society or challenging the collective message you are attacked but its rarely an attack of the facts. Typically its an attack on the character of the person asking the questions. Oh, he's just a nut or oh, he's just out for attention, etc. We as a society tend to fly over the message and attack the messenger any time the message flies contrary to the commonly held narrative. This method has been used since the beginning of time. At least now we no long burn someone alive for their observations which fly contrary to the prepared message.

    Those who investigate are typically independent in this age. There you have my answer. Am I crazy or out for attention? Thats your decision.



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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Come on Joey, most stories come from one source, like the associated press and is then picked up (repeated) by all the outlets. You're getting no variety and no one is challenging and investigating like journalists used to do. Typically what is fact is the words from one man's mouth. Why is that?

    You never get the full story unless you go to the people investigating the stories, those asking questions. If you are someone who asks questions in today's society or challenging the collective message you are attacked but its rarely an attack of the facts. Typically its an attack on the character of the person asking the questions. Oh, he's just a nut or oh, he's just out for attention, etc. We as a society tend to fly over the message and attack the messenger any time the message flies contrary to the commonly held narrative. This method has been used since the beginning of time. At least now we no long burn someone alive for their observations which fly contrary to the prepared message.

    Those who investigate are typically independent in this age. There you have my answer. Am I crazy or out for attention? Thats your decision.
    No one is saying you're crazy, or out for attention. Just that Alex Jones is, and that you may have been caught in his web of misinformation.

    Or perhaps he is the only one telling the truth and the rest of us are all sheep. Anything is possible.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    What freedoms are you referring to? And what exactly do you mean by 'balanced level of freedoms'?

    Wealth redistribution does not create a higher standard of living, maybe in the short term it does for some but what happens when people one the drive to produce because they can't reap the benefits of their hard work, sacrifice and risk? What encourages them to innovate and create new products to or services that people want? If not for capitalism we wouldn't have the many things we take for granted today. We wouldn't even be having this discussion on this forum because there would be no reason to create the means to do it. Everything we take for granted today started with a person coming up with an idea creating a product and selling it for yes the evil word PROFIT. In doing so he or she improved the life of the purchaser of that product. It is the freedom of people and business to exchange goods servics and money that drives innovation and promotes personal and social growth. That is what makes capitalism great. I admit it's not perfect but it is the best system ever created by man
    I'm too lazy to give a lesson, but here you go. This is a good basic site to get acquainted with different issues of freedom and liberities.

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/report-types/freedom-world

    Here's another one that doesn't frame it in terms of freedom, but in terms of functionality of the state (and hence inherently gives some insight into how a state helps or hurts certain pursuits)

    http://ffp.statesindex.org/rankings-2013-sortable
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Dec 11th, 2013 at 01:59 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    The very basis of capitalism is freedom, thereby making it inherent.
    Although this sounds snappy, I'm struggling to find the real meaning in this sentence.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    No one is saying you're crazy, or out for attention. Just that Alex Jones is, and that you may have been caught in his web of misinformation.

    Or perhaps he is the only one telling the truth and the rest of us are all sheep. Anything is possible.
    Or perhaps niether is the case. I just find it difficult to discredit somehing merely because of the messenger. I mean politician lie everyday and later these lieslead to scandals yet we as a society continue to eat it up without question. I think critical thinking is on the ropes.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    It should also be noted in all of this, that Canada is about as "Communist" as a Capitalist country can get; what with its Government run Health Care. The equivalent in the states was recently panned as "Commiunist" within the US. You guys must HATE all that free Communist Health Care.

    The NBA has actually been charged with being Anti-Capitalist several times in the past. Why shouldn't these athletes be able to choose where they Play and how much they earn? Why do all teams have to have an equal shot at winning? Why do they have Revenue Sharing?!
    Its SOO communist.
    Last edited by Joey; Wed Dec 11th, 2013 at 02:27 PM.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I would disgree. Most industries are free game for all, and elections are legitimate and tranparent. There sure is a lot of corruption still though but Canada is nothing like your classic real examples of communist countries.

    Some would ague that there are problems with Canada's health system... And its not free. Why do you think your income taxes are so high? You don't even get to see how much you spend on health care. You don't have a seat at the table. Whenever there is a lack of competition there is a lack of motivation. Why do you think wait times are so long for surgeries and specialist appointments?

    I get the merits but lets not lose sight of what it is and how its funded.


    Most Americans didn't want Obamacare and it's been a collossal failure so far.

    The NBA isn't a communist entity. They're out to make as much as they can. They operate in a market against competitors. I don't get your point, there is no government control and players don't get paid equally, quite the contrary. They get paid based on market demand within the confines of a collective bargaining agreement. Some of the owners benefit from revenue sharing but they don't make equal profits and they don't share in equal risk.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    This was just published today! So, funny that a thread on communism breaks out here. What I do is pretty rarely relevant here, so here you go.

    Interview with Dmytri Kleiner, Venture Communist and Miscommunications Technologist

    http://c-realm.blogspot.de/2013/12/i...r-venture.html

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  20. #76
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    Some very uninformed and biased opinions in here that are backed up with nothing more than just their opinions...

    But I guess that's what politics is

    I won't jump in here, since getting into politics in a Forum is always a bad idea.

    But, for what it's worth, I've lived in Canada, Capitalist/"Free", and I live in Hong Kong, and work in China.

    as to Uncle_Si's point about is it the Capitalist's fault that people are in poverty, well, as a Business man, and somebody who's family owns and operates business in China, and employs a fair amount of people (Approximately 1500 - 2000 depending on the season), I will say without a doubt, that the Capitalists do hold a huge fault in their poverty.

    In my eyes at least.

    EDIT: I also thought i'd mention something on the point of whether "Communist" Countries care about their citizens or not, and expand on my point.

    In the last few years, China has been steadily pushing for businesses that employee people to raise wages. It's been a steady increase, and a fair amount. I don't remember the exact number, but it has run a lot of firms out of business.

    Not only are they raising the wages, they also are forcing firms to purchase some sort of "plan" to help these individuals save money, and work towards buying housing, or what-not.

    It's something they've been doing for a while, and it grows each and ever year.

    On top of my original point. Thikn about it this way. If the "Capitalist" countries didn't require their $150.00 Nikes that cost $20.00 to make, and cheap labour, China wouldn't have the means to employ so many people.

    With the wage-rate rising in China, people are moving to India and other countries that haven't imposed these higher fees.

    So...don't say that "Communism" doesn't have a care for it's people while other people benefit. Sure, those up top continue to reap in the money for doing nothing. But isn't that the same in any culture or economy/country?
    Last edited by phiLLy; Thu Dec 12th, 2013 at 03:31 AM.

  21. #77
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote phiLLy wrote: View Post
    Some very uninformed and biased opinions in here that are backed up with nothing more than just their opinions...

    But I guess that's what politics is

    I won't jump in here, since getting into politics in a Forum is always a bad idea.

    But, for what it's worth, I've lived in Canada, Capitalist/"Free", and I live in Hong Kong, and work in China.

    as to Uncle_Si's point about is it the Capitalist's fault that people are in poverty, well, as a Business man, and somebody who's family owns and operates business in China, and employs a fair amount of people (Approximately 1500 - 2000 depending on the season), I will say without a doubt, that the Capitalists do hold a huge fault in their poverty.

    In my eyes at least.

    EDIT: I also thought i'd mention something on the point of whether "Communist" Countries care about their citizens or not, and expand on my point.

    In the last few years, China has been steadily pushing for businesses that employee people to raise wages. It's been a steady increase, and a fair amount. I don't remember the exact number, but it has run a lot of firms out of business.

    Not only are they raising the wages, they also are forcing firms to purchase some sort of "plan" to help these individuals save money, and work towards buying housing, or what-not.

    It's something they've been doing for a while, and it grows each and ever year.

    On top of my original point. Thikn about it this way. If the "Capitalist" countries didn't require their $150.00 Nikes that cost $20.00 to make, and cheap labour, China wouldn't have the means to employ so many people.

    With the wage-rate rising in China, people are moving to India and other countries that haven't imposed these higher fees.

    So...don't say that "Communism" doesn't have a care for it's people while other people benefit. Sure, those up top continue to reap in the money for doing nothing. But isn't that the same in any culture or economy/country?
    There is no perfect system, I think we can all agree on that. But what economic system provides the best opportunity for people to succeed. I argue that it's capitalism. Capitalism does not guarantee success but it does guarantee opportunity. I can speak from personal experience being a business owner myself. I struggled in an industry to make a name for myself I lived off of tuna and kaiser buns for 6 months in a shitty motel room, willing to do whatever it took to gain experience and knowledge in my industry. I would work 10 hour days then work 4 hours after for free just to learn more from the guys I was working with. I spent time studying and training on my own time to better understand different aspects of my industry. I sacrificed time with friends and family because of the travel that is required in my industry. I understand that this might not he for everyone. I understand that some people think it's crazy to do what I have done, as a matter of fact many of my friends and family thought that in the past. I didn't have to do the things I did, I made a choice. I saw an opportunity and I went for it, knowing there was no guarantee of success. It worked out for me and I don't regret a single thing that I did. Today I have succeeded in my own terms. I don't care about anyone's definition of success other than my own. I don't want anything from anyone nor do I expect. I understand that my current success is not guaranteed to last so I am planning for the future. I help those in need where I can and as in see fit. Capitalism worked for me and it has worked for millions of others.

    I have seen what communism does to oppress people because my family lived through it, they escaped to Canada in hopes of bettering their lives and providing their kids. What my family went through under communist rule I would never wish on anyone. For these reasons I believe in Capitalism and I oppose communism. The great thing about Canada, unlike communist countries, we can have these discussions and debates without risk of persecution. Freedom is a precious commodity to me and is more valuable than any amount of money. As I said these are my views and I don't expect anyone else to understand them nor do I expect anyone to agree with me. I think that these types of discussions are important to have, but this forum doesn't seem to be the best for it. If anyone would like to discuss further feel free to PM me. #tanknation #MU

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Revisionist view of Mandela by Stefan Molyneux. References are on the youtube page.

    He spends way more of his time justifying Apartheid, and condemning Modern Day South Africa than he does revealing anything new about Mandela. Weird.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Dec 17th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Revisionist view of Mandela by Stefan Molyneux. References are on the youtube page.



    BTW, there's no point in debating "capitalism" without first defining it -- since there's no agreed-upon definition, you're usually debating apples and oranges.
    Amazing! I wonder if these pop commentators bother to watch their diatribes after they have recorded them. For example after the putdown of Mandela regarding his refusal to renounce "non-violence" he goes on to let us all know about his disdain of colonialism but then spends pretty much the rest of the piece comparing economic/socio downgrades of South Africans post apartheid to the benefits they enjoyed during. This guy is clearly a Ayn Randian disciple. But I digress. He mentions not how black South Africans were treated in the apartheid system by a racist minority holding power through threat of violence and incarceration nor whether the economic statistics were inclusive of black SAs. Colonialists had their problems regarding personal freedoms and equal rights for the indigeneous but it was somewhat "benign" compared to South African practised apartheid and a somewhat lesser extent the system of separation being practised over another occupied people....the Palestinians.

    On the matter of renouncement of violence when the "offer" was "graciously" made by Botha to Mandela, he replied, "Let him renounce violence". After all, there was a great violence first begun by the ruling white class upon Mandela's people. For those who forget how insidious the system is...a brief description:

    Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times under Dutch rule.[6] Apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general election of 1948. Legislation classified inhabitants into four racial groups, "black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian", with Indian and coloured divided into several sub-classifications,[7] and residential areas were segregated, sometimes by forced removals. Non-white political representation was abolished in 1970, and starting in that year black people were deprived of their citizenship, legally becoming citizens of one of ten tribally based self-governing homelands called bantustans, four of which became nominally independent states. The government segregated education, medical care, beaches, and other public services, and provided black people with services inferior to those of white people.[8]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

    Malcolm X & ML King were leaders in the US who struggled with the concept of violence in their leadership of black peoples in America during the struggles of the 60s:

    Malcolm X understood:

    If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it is wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it is wrong for America to draft us, and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country.


    Martin Luther King Jr. agreed:

    As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men, I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems ... But, they asked, what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today, my own government.
    As did Mandela. Offered the chance to be free by the avowed white supremacist P.W. Botha if he would renounce violence, Mandela replied, “Let him renounce violence.”
    While the two struggles had the commonality of subjugated black peoples there is a dichotomy that the ruling class would subject the black populations to less than equal conditions and forced separation under pain of incarceration if there was pushback but yet demand non violence/obedience locally and violence abroad (induction into the army) against supposed enemies of the state.

    I notice that the thread has devolved into a discussion of economic/political systems. This is a canard and diversion from the real subject.....fundamental justice and freedoms equal to all regardless of race, creed or gender. That is what Mandela fought for. SA is not going to change overnight...it never does but the reconciliation movement he started to safeguard the rights of those who supported and enforced the prior system is a testimony to his fundamental goodness of being. I couldnt care less about his true ideology (he has denied being a communist).

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    Oops. Nothing personal, but it seems that I was insulting Rand. I didnt realize the gentleman's background...he just came across very conservative on fiscal and socio grounds and unforgiving that there will always be people in any society that will be disadvantaged and consequently require help. A just society will provide this. I still dont get his anti Mandela spiel. He was fighting to free indigenous SAs from an insidious racist government. It seems like the height of confusion (a charge often levelled against libertarians) that Stefan is an anti-colonialist but seemingly pro apartheid. Something is not computing.

    To be honest I dont want to tread in areas I do not have much knowledge in but here are a couple of quotes from Rand on libertarians and anarchists and dont know quite what to make of it....I was of the opinion the two (Randian & Libertarian) were relatively close in their thinking....individualism, survival of the fittest and the usual looking after #1 stuff. Oh yes and government and social programs are bad. Ms Rand who railed against programs like social security and medicare etc when dying of lung cancer was not above getting those benefits to ease her misfortune.

    Q: What do you think of the libertarian movement?

    AR: All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists; but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.

    Q: Libertarians advocate the politics you do, so why are you opposed to the Libertarian Party?

    AR: They’re not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now it’s a bad sign for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas.
    Are you saying that Stefan/yourself are further right of Rand?

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