Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 86

Thread: Nelson Mandela: The World Loses an Icon.

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    in a van down by the river
    Posts
    2,798
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote mjmc wrote: View Post
    Good comments man. I am white and I still think the black man gets "fucked" lol.
    All kidding aside, the trolls on the internet prove to me that pure racism still exists and it is no different now than it was in the '90's. Oh Trayvon too. I wear a hoodie all the time and I am white and I bet any money that I would of lived through that senario.
    The day that people are not judged by skin pigmentation is still far off in the future.
    But alas, this is a BB site so i will keep this short.
    RIP, Nelson. You were a KING.
    trayvon was only a racial issue because the media made it a racial issue... it was fabricated drivel. a tragedy for sure, but that wasn't a racially motivated murder... it was excessive force in self defense causing death...

    if it was the 90s, trayvon would have got a back alley gangster stomp by 5 cops. in the 10s, he got shot by a guy he was beating the living shit out of at the time.

  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I get a lot of what he did and why people admire him but I'm not about to tip my hat to a communist. No offence intended.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  3. #23
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I get a lot of what he did and why people admire him but I'm not about to tip my hat to a communist. No offence intended.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    Interesting stance ... I'm sorry you feel that way though.

    I'd ask you read this very basic definition of Communism (not saying you don't know the definition, just that this puts it in massive context for me when I look at the time and circumstance), and then tell me why a Black Man in South Africa at the time wouldn't support the movement:
    Simply put, communism is the idea that everyone in a given society receives equal shares of the benefits derived from labor. Communism is designed to allow the poor to rise up and attain financial and social status equal to that of the middle-class landowners. In order for everyone to achieve equality, wealth is redistributed so that the members of the upper class are brought down to the same financial and social level as the middle class.
    All Mandela wanted was Equality. Which is exactly what Communism boils down too.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Dec 9th, 2013 at 02:40 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

  4. #24
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I know what communism is and I know where it leads: Stalin & Mao.

    I'm not saying Mandela is a monster because I don't believe that but he was a communist and I am strongly against that system and I think celebrating communists is a dangerous road to travel when you're in a prosperous capitalist society which owes capitalism for all it has.

    There are oppressed peoples everywhere. Hell, America and Canada was oppressed by the British but did they resort to communism? Where would this world be if the USA were a communist state? Much more poverty stricken and much more violent and oppressed. Your defence of communism isn't enough to sway me, sorry.

    If you socialize production you take away the incentive to work hard. It's why the standard of living is so poor in communist countries. Communism is marketed as the gateway to a utopia when really it's a gateway to some Orwellian nightmare.

    Communism doesn't lead to equality, that's just false advertising. History tell us it's one of the worst things a people can submit to.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Apollo, where art thou Apollo. Dont see you opining on the Raptor forums anymore...care to share?

    But "communist" Mandela? That charge is seriously under explained in your one-liner comment on one of the great leaders of his time who only wanted the rights and freedoms for his people from the abominable system of apartheid. He was rejected by the system we hold valuable...that of a capitalist democracy (the US more so) which actually sided with the racist white government of South Africa. Ronald Reagan famously vetoed a bill from his own congress to install sanctions on SA. How brilliant was that. And Israel and SA colluded on nuclear research and armaments incl. testing of devices. Until the whole thing became untenable.

    In a sentence. He had no choice but to align himself and movement with the system (communism and by default the other super power the Soviet Union) that could provide him with some funding and political leverage. Here is his statement on the question:

    "In one of his several trials, Mandela was asked if he was a Communist. “If by Communist you mean a member of the Communist Party and a person who believes in the theory of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, and who adheres strictly to the discipline of the party, I did not become a Communist,” he replied. The answer was both evasive and perfectly accurate."

    Excerpted from the article in the link below which will hopefully allow you to rethink your hat-tipping which ultimately in my view should have nothing to do with his ideology (which really wasn't communism) but his humanity and selflessness.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/08/op...nist.html?_r=0

  6. Like Joey liked this post
  7. #26
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Even if he didn't believe in Lenin and the like, it's still dangerous for capitalists to celebrate a person who was an iconic communist. It flies in the face of what we are as a society. Capitalism isn't perfect but I assure you his people were no more oppressed than those people in the Soviet Union or China or Cuba, etc. who he might seek assistance from.

    Off topic: I'm around, not posting as much because i have no desire to watch or cheer for the Raptors again until they earn my attention (I've wasted enough time on them thank you). I spend my time waiting for opportunities to be controversial now.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Even if he didn't believe in Lenin and the like, it's still dangerous for capitalists to celebrate a person who was an iconic communist. It flies in the face of what we are as a society. Capitalism isn't perfect but I assure you his people were no more oppressed than those people in the Soviet Union or China or Cuba, etc. who he might seek assistance from.

    Off topic: I'm around, not posting as much because i have no desire to watch or cheer for the Raptors again until they earn my attention (I've wasted enough time on them thank you). I spend my time waiting for opportunities to be controversial now.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    Thats too bad about the Raptors thing I sometimes feel a twinge of despair too....but there is a new sheriff in town and perhaps....

    On that other matter I shall just mention that the oppressed peoples of SA were really the indigenous peoples of that land being subjugated by another race. Ironically, I once read that they picked up on their methodology from that used on the system of reservations for the native peoples in north America. And the Israelis from SA to do their thing on the Palestinians today. The difference between the the two "types" of oppressed is that ALL of the peoples in the SU and other communist societies were oppressed unlike in SA where the white MINORITY enjoyed ruling and special status economically, legally and in status on many levels. Just cannot conflate the two imv.

    If the capitalist western democracies did the right thing and supported the ANC there would have been no seeking of support of the communist system prevalent in the geopolitical reality of the time. All to say, any allegiance Mandela spoke of was purely in tactical use for his ultimate aim...a non violent freedom achievement for SA and a democratic SA....which it is today.

  9. #28
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, regardless of what he stood for, he was a communist and procommunists are now going to use him a positive example and too me this is unfortunate,. You can't separate him from the ideology and so this is why I say to celebrate him is to celebrate communism.

    Castro liberated Cuba, and now where is Cuba fifty some odd years later? Well, I've been there so I will tell you. Most live in poverty, beautiful architecture rots where it stands but hey, everyone is equal(except the ruling class) so everything is great, right?

    As for the Raps, I've been a fan since day one, it's exhausting. This regime is gonna have to earn my business, it's not coming for free anymore.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar lilmamba_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Etobicoke<3
    Posts
    2,630
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I know you all are gonna laugh at me for the rest of my life but what a communist and whats so bad bout them?
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

  11. #30
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
    I know you all are gonna laugh at me for the rest of my life but what a communist and whats so bad bout them?
    Not at all Mamba. Fair question. Especially for someone your age.

    Communism is the opposite of Capitalism (of which North America and much of the World exercises) in that, instead of being able to start your own business, and create your own wealth based on selling a product you deem required by the market, the government owns all businesses, and controls the sale of all goods within the country. Nobody owns anything really.

    So while some things like Education and Health Care are controlled for and paid for by the Government (Cuba has the best education rate in the world) other things such as basic goods like TVs and Nice Sports Car's are a little harder to come by.

    If you go to the Library and get the Communist Manifesto, it will shed a little light. Pretty short read too.
    Communism wasn't designed to be "Bad", it is an inherently 'good' system that has been corrupted by the Governments to take advantage of its weaknesses.


    The problem with bringing it up with regards to Mandela, is that he was the President of South Africa for several years, and at no point did he turn it into a 'Communist' state.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Dec 10th, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

  12. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Not at all Mamba. Fair question. Especially for someone your age.

    Communism is the opposite of Capitalism (of which North America and much of the World exercises) in that, instead of being able to start your own business, and create your own wealth based on selling a product you deem required by the market, the government owns all businesses, and controls the sale of all goods within the country. Nobody owns anything really.

    So while some things like Education and Health Care are controlled for and paid for by the Government (Cuba has the best education rate in the world) other things such as basic goods like TVs and Nice Sports Car's are a little harder to come by.

    If you go to the Library and get the Communist Manifesto, it will shed a little light. Pretty short read too.
    Communism wasn't designed to be "Bad", it is an inherently 'good' system that has been corrupted by the Governments to take advantage of its weaknesses.


    The problem with bringing it up with regards to Mandela, is that he was the President of South Africa for several years, and at no point did he turn it into a 'Communist' state.
    Communism is evil. It limits a persons freedom. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool and should take a look at what happened to people under communist rule. As far as equality for all under communism that's fucking bull shit. Communism is set up so that people that follow and support the leadership are HEAVILY rewarded while all the minions work for scraps. If the minions say anything they are jailed it's an evil evil form of government and the sooner people realize that the better.

  13. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Even if he didn't believe in Lenin and the like, it's still dangerous for capitalists to celebrate a person who was an iconic communist. It flies in the face of what we are as a society. Capitalism isn't perfect but I assure you his people were no more oppressed than those people in the Soviet Union or China or Cuba, etc. who he might seek assistance from.

    Off topic: I'm around, not posting as much because i have no desire to watch or cheer for the Raptors again until they earn my attention (I've wasted enough time on them thank you). I spend my time waiting for opportunities to be controversial now.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    Apollo you are 100% correct. I'd rather fail/succeed on my own terms rather than the terms of some communist leader. Anyone that supports communism today has a very very poor understanding of what it is and how it operates. There is no such thing as a benevolent dictator and there is nothing more valuable than individual liberty.

  14. #33
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Communism is evil. It limits a persons freedom. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool and should take a look at what happened to people under communist rule. As far as equality for all under communism that's fucking bull shit. Communism is set up so that people that follow and support the leadership are HEAVILY rewarded while all the minions work for scraps. If the minions say anything they are jailed it's an evil evil form of government and the sooner people realize that the better.
    I'm guessing you haven't read the Communist Manifesto ..? Once again, the way you describe Communism was NOT the way it was intented to be implemented. So to just lay out a blanket statement of "Communism is Evil" sounds a little ignorant ... but whatever.
    In Masai we Trust.

  15. #34
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Anyway, this is a thread about Nelson Mandela, not communism.
    Nelson Mandela was NOT a communist. Anyone who says otherwise is just buying into the Propaganda.
    In Masai we Trust.

  16. #35
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm guessing you haven't read the Communist Manifesto ..? Once again, the way you describe Communism was NOT the way it was intented to be implemented. So to just lay out a blanket statement of "Communism is Evil" sounds a little ignorant ... but whatever.
    You are so misled. I have family that fled a communist country and relatives That died fighting for freedom. You have no idea what you are talking about, my family knows first hand what communism is really about.

  17. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Anyway, this is a thread about Nelson Mandela, not communism.
    Nelson Mandela was NOT a communist. Anyone who says otherwise is just buying into the Propaganda.
    Wrong again, although I agree that Mandela did amazing things in South Africa and led by examples of peace and forgiveness he strongly condemned capitalism and his party was one of at the very least communist leanings. That not propaganda that's fact.

  18. #37
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    What is written in theory and what is reality dont always align. Communism in action is oppressive rule by fear, intimidation, violences, propaganda, intrusion of privacy, etc. It does not work and will never work for human nature will not allow it to work.

    Commoners equally suffer. There's your equality in a communist state. There is no three class system in a communist state. There is only the poor(slaves in abundance) and the ruling class who live privilaged lives.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  19. #38
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I also feel that a thread about Mandela naturally would lead to a discussion on communism. Its like talking about Wayne Gretzky with the expectation that hockey should not be discussed.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  20. #39
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,430
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    You are so misled. I have family that fled a communist country and relatives That died fighting for freedom. You have no idea what you are talking about, my family knows first hand what communism is really about.
    Lol If you haven't read it then you can't say I have no idea what I'm talking about, as its quite the opposite, good sir.
    I know full well what I'm talking about thank you very much. What Stalin turned it into is NOT what it was initially intended to be. I'm going to leave it at that.
    In Masai we Trust.

  21. #40
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't agree with everything Alex Jones says but this is an interesting take on it all that you won't get anywhere else:

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •