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Thread: Evolution of Offence - Casey should read this

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Default Evolution of Offence - Casey should read this

    How the Heat evolved from a iso-heavy team (sounds familiar?) to an efficient machine using "pace and space"

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...volved-offense

    JV would need to develop his mid-range J (or we play Amir at the 5 spot).

    Demar could fill Wade's cutter role but would need to finish strong every time.

    Lowry and Novak can hit the perimeter shots.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Its not Casey who needs to read that, its Masai (well Colangelo technically, but he's not here).

    The Heat have

    1) the best mid range shooter in the game (Bosh)
    2) one of the best 3pt shooters of all time (Allen)
    3) one of the most efficient scorers of all time (LeBron)
    4) 3 players in the starting line up who are (or have been) the equivalent of PGs (LeBron, Wade, Chalmers)

    It works because of the level of talent they have.

    It's a cliché to say that LeBron James makes the players around him better. But that is exactly what is happening. If you placed any member of the Heat on another team, his efficiency would likely suffer. James is a rising tide that lifts all the boats on Miami's roster.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Its not Casey who needs to read that, its Masai (well Colangelo technically, but he's not here).

    The Heat have

    1) the best mid range shooter in the game (Bosh)
    2)the best 3pt shooter of all time (Allen)
    3) one of the most efficient scorers of all time (LeBron)
    4) 3 players in the starting line up who are (or have been) the equivalent of PGs (LeBron, Wade, Chalmers)

    It works because of the level of talent they have.
    Fix'd

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Its not Casey who needs to read that, its Masai (well Colangelo technically, but he's not here).

    The Heat have

    1) the best mid range shooter in the game (Bosh)
    2) one of the best 3pt shooters of all time (Allen)
    3) one of the most efficient scorers of all time (LeBron)
    4) 3 players in the starting line up who are (or have been) the equivalent of PGs (LeBron, Wade, Chalmers)

    It works because of the level of talent they have.
    Bosh is the best mid range shooter in the game? What
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Bosh is the best mid range shooter in the game? What
    I don't think it's that surprising. Bosh has always had a good jumper but he has 2 other things going his way:
    1) A lot of the best shooters (guards, SF, PGs) are trending away from that spot towards the arc and corner
    2) The extra spacing he gets with 2 elite rim attackers and 2 very good/great 3 PT shooters is almost unparalleled.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    "Your team naturally takes on the personality traits of your best player. We are very fortunate that LeBron is such an unselfish and giving player for someone so talented. Same for Dwyane and Chris. It makes it much easier for everyone else to buy into team basketball."
    You mean that management and coaches can't just transform players like playdough? That culture comes from your actual people? Who woulda thunk?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You mean that management and coaches can't just transform players like playdough? That culture comes from your actual people? Who woulda thunk?
    Culture comes from 99% people, 1% locker room igneous boulder.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Bosh is the best mid range shooter in the game? What
    If I'm not mistaken he had the best % from 15 to 23ft last year, and so far again this year, in the league. If we want to change it to 'one of' for posterity I'm not bothered. The point still remains.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Culture comes from 99% people, 1% locker room igneous boulder.
    Perhaps thats the problem. Inadequate boulder.

    Fire Masai!! A good GM would have recognized the importance of replacing the boulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Its not Casey who needs to read that, its Masai (well Colangelo technically, but he's not here).

    The Heat have

    1) the best mid range shooter in the game (Bosh)
    2) one of the best 3pt shooters of all time (Allen)
    3) one of the most efficient scorers of all time (LeBron)
    4) 3 players in the starting line up who are (or have been) the equivalent of PGs (LeBron, Wade, Chalmers)

    It works because of the level of talent they have.
    This is all true, but I hate the dismissiveness re: Spolestra's impact.

    The Heats first season together is what you get when you lump a bunch of all-stars together and let them run amok. Not much.

    Coach Spol made deep, systemic changes that have had a huge impact on Miami's championship runs. To ignore that just because they have LeBron is like dismissing Pops because he has Duncan or Phil because he had MJ, Kobe, and Shaq.

    Yes, they had great players, but these are also great coaches. You can see their impact just by watching the teams.

    For case studies on how to underachieve with all-NBA talent, please see: Nets, Brooklyn and D'Antoni's Lakers. It's easy to forget that there have been many superstar-fuelled craptastrophies in the NBA.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This is all true, but I hate the dismissiveness re: Spolestra's impact.

    The Heats first season together is what you get when you lump a bunch of all-stars together and let them run amok. Not much.

    Coach Spol made deep, systemic changes that have had a huge impact on Miami's championship runs. To ignore that just because they have LeBron is like dismissing Pops because he has Duncan or Phil because he had MJ, Kobe, and Shaq.

    Yes, they had great players, but these are also great coaches. You can see their impact just by watching the teams.

    For case studies on how to underachieve with all-NBA talent, please see: Nets, Brooklyn and D'Antoni's Lakers. It's easy to forget that there have been many superstar-fuelled craptastrophies in the NBA.
    I'm not being dismissive of Spoelstra. The point is others can't do what Miami does because they don't have Miami's talent, and Miami's talent makes it so much easier to do what Miami would like.

    D'Antoni's Lakers
    It was also D'Antoni's Suns who were the most efficient offensive team in the league for years! What happened? Did he suddenly just chose to become a bad coach?

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm not being dismissive of Spoelstra. The point is others can't do what Miami does because they don't have Miami's talent, and Miami's talent makes it so much easier to do what Miami would like.



    It was also D'Antoni's Suns who were the most efficient offensive team in the league for years! What happened? Did he suddenly just chose to become a bad coach?
    "It works because of the level of talent they have."

    That ^^^ comment sounds pretty dismissive. It's true, but it doesn't negate the point of the original comment at all. You're right in that it is the reason that Miami's changes were so successful (read: championship-level). The same changes wouldn't make the Raps contenders, but it would make them much better. That's all.

    Re: D'Antoni - evidently he's a very one dimensional coach who needs Steve Nash almost as much as Steve Nash needs him.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Every time D'Antoni cashes a paycheque, he should be thanking Steve Nash.

    Amare and Marion should be doing the same....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    How the Heat evolved from a iso-heavy team (sounds familiar?) to an efficient machine using "pace and space"

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...volved-offense

    JV would need to develop his mid-range J (or we play Amir at the 5 spot).

    Demar could fill Wade's cutter role but would need to finish strong every time.

    Lowry and Novak can hit the perimeter shots.
    Casey may not be able to read.....it would explain a lot.

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    Great read - one thing to note in each of the animated gifs is the baseline cutter creating space and forcing the defender to move with the cutter (not allowing the D to help). In the Raptors set there is virtually no movement. Even if they were to have the passer move the the weakside, screen the weakside wing, or cut to the basket and bump the weakside wing to the top - the defence would have less ability to double team and create better flow and possibly open passing lanes.

    It is amazing/depressing to see how few of the Raptors offensive possessions results in the ball moving below the foul line extended. The ball goes from the top to the wing... and if lucky gets swung to the opposite wing. The ball rarely gets passed into the deep post and almost is never reversed from one wing to the opposite corner for a high percentage three.

    I am a huge Raptors fan, but I am getting closer and closer to turning the game off mid-game, as they are absolutely painful to watch.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    "It works because of the level of talent they have."

    That ^^^ comment sounds pretty dismissive. It's true, but it doesn't negate the point of the original comment at all. You're right in that it is the reason that Miami's changes were so successful (read: championship-level). The same changes wouldn't make the Raps contenders, but it would make them much better. That's all.

    Re: D'Antoni - evidently he's a very one dimensional coach who needs Steve Nash almost as much as Steve Nash needs him.
    Sound any more dismissive than what I bolded?

    So exactly why can't we make a similar statement towards Spoelstra? What did he accomplish without LeBron? What did he accomplish without talent on that team?

    Miami is talented, exceptionally talented. With one of the best players to ever play the game, who is also incredibly unique in his physical talents and basketball IQ. In that he can play numerous positions and roles. There is just no way we can seperate the success that Miami has had with the talent on that team, except for details at the margins.

    Spoelstra puts people where they can maximize their talents? I can agree to that. But he can also has the luxury of doing that because 1) they already are talented in their skill set 2) having a player the calibre of LeBron makes everyone else a pseudo-role player where talents are more easily maximized.

    Do you not think Casey would love to have a 3 and D guy on this team to be the Raptors 'Battier'? Sure he would. But he doesn't have that. If he did, who on this team could get him the ball as effectively as someone like LeBron can Battier? Novak is a great shooter, comparible to Allen in his own way. But Casey can't afford to keep him on the floor because of his defensive weaknesses, and again, who gets him the ball like LeBron does Allen?

    Sure if JV started hitting mid range shots, and Demar was finishing strong at the rim this team would see more wins or a better team. But they'd also be better players. So how do we seperate > talent from > wins here? We don't.

    Its still a talent issue, its a player issue, its a roster issue, first and foremost.

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Sound any more dismissive than what I bolded?

    So exactly why can't we make a similar statement towards Spoelstra? What did he accomplish without LeBron? What did he accomplish without talent on that team?

    Miami is talented, exceptionally talented. With one of the best players to ever play the game, who is also incredibly unique in his physical talents and basketball IQ. In that he can play numerous positions and roles. There is just no way we can seperate the success that Miami has had with the talent on that team, except for details at the margins.

    Spoelstra puts people where they can maximize their talents? I can agree to that. But he can also has the luxury of doing that because 1) they already are talented in their skill set 2) having a player the calibre of LeBron makes everyone else a pseudo-role player where talents are more easily maximized.

    Do you not think Casey would love to have a 3 and D guy on this team to be the Raptors 'Battier'? Sure he would. But he doesn't have that. If he did, who on this team could get him the ball as effectively as someone like LeBron can Battier? Novak is a great shooter, comparible to Allen in his own way. But Casey can't afford to keep him on the floor because of his defensive weaknesses, and again, who gets him the ball like LeBron does Allen?

    Sure if JV started hitting mid range shots, and Demar was finishing strong at the rim this team would see more wins or a better team. But they'd also be better players. So how do we seperate > talent from > wins here? We don't.

    Its still a talent issue, its a player issue, its a roster issue, first and foremost.
    I agree, but I'd still argue that it's an oversimplification to say the Raptors can't adjust their system (or that the adjustments would have little/no impact) because they don't have the talent of the Heat. There are bad teams that are well coached and playing a system, which leads to overachieving (the Suns look to be in this camp already). Not sure this is a good synopsis of what you're saying, but it's what I've understood.

    I'm very willing to be dismissive of D'Antoni at this point. I don't think Spolestra is as one-dimensional because the systems he's implemented are far more nuanced than the 7 Seconds or Less Suns offensive principles were. But you're right - we'll never know how good Spol is until we see him with a different roster. It's the same debate re: Popovich and Phil (not that I think Spol's on their level).

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post


    It was also D'Antoni's Suns who were the most efficient offensive team in the league for years! What happened? Did he suddenly just chose to become a bad coach?
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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