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Thread: TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Of course we're rebuilding. Everybody should know this by now. If Gay could be gone he would be. We're not getting any great picks (top 5)this year, but Masai wants top 5 next year, top 5 year after plus NYK's pick. Then we add a couple pieces and 2016-17 we have a lot of young studs and are back in the playoff bubble picture THE RIGHT WAY.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Do the anti-tankers realize that if we finish with the 3rd worst record, we have a 100% chance at a top 6 pick?

    None of us concerned about "winning the lottery".
    That would be fantastic.

    If the *only* things MU accomplishes this year are the following, I'd consider the year a positive step forward:
    - Moving Gay for almost anything and making sure that $19 million isn't on the books next season
    - Replacing the coach this season or in the summer
    - Landing a top 6 pick in the 2014 draft

    (+ it would be easy to add any minor transactions (moving Lowry, Novak, etc.) that would add a late pick or a raw prospect and make sure there's additional cap space sooner.)

    These moves alone would put the Raps miles ahead next season in terms of building a roster with sustainable aspirations for real winning - instead of this patchwork "maybe we can make the 6-8 seed because the rest of the conference is really shitty" crap.

    It may all be a moot point anyway. This team is really bad. Really bad. "Tough schedule"? The Raps have yet to beat a +.500 team. News flash: this team isn't any good. They're 3 wins away from being 30th in a 30 team league, their most important players (DD, Amir, Jonas) are visibly frustrated already, and the current headlines are "When will the coach be fired?" and "When will the rebuild begin?" And we've got people talking playoffs here? I'll applaud the optimism and understand the short-sighted "I just wanna see playoff games at the ACC" sentiment, but seriously...
    Last edited by S.R.; Thu Dec 5th, 2013 at 12:49 PM.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Whats a full-blown rebuild? Is that tanking too?

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  5. #44
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I don't understand how Lowry has tepid interest..6 Mil per, he's the IDEAL backup on a championship team. Doesn't OKC need a good backup?
    'Cause he's a rental who's probably going to ask for a lot more money on his next contract. He's a great backup option for a playoff team if you need a backup for this year only -- unless you are willing to pay him again this summer and for the next 3-4 years. He's the "anti-contract year player" in that he's actually semi-valuable and is on a good contract, so his expiring contract isn't the same kind of draw that, say, Rudy's will be next year...

    Still, "tepid" interest probably only means Toronto is still asking too much in return. He's definitely tradeable.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    That would be fantastic.
    And if Masai can somehow, someway weasel another 2014 lotto pick from someone, then it's just gravy
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Whats a full-blown rebuild? Is that tanking too?
    It seems to me like we're already tanking, just by fielding the roster we currently have. We're not going to be adding any veterans to this piece of shit that's for sure. Hansbrough was probably brought in to trade Amir this year (one of the best returns we'll get this year). Also why do you think we have 4 point guards? I bet Kyle and Amir are gone this year, hopefully Gay but nobody wants him. The only starter remaining in 2 years I'm sure will be Jonas.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

  8. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Rebuild on it's way...hmmmm... I thought this was obvious with BC's 'demotion' and Ujiri's hiring, or am I the only one who knew that no friggin way does a new GM roll with his predecessor's lineup?

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  10. #48
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    Come now Masai, still "evaluating"? Really? At least use another term eg. assessing. We know you cannot reveal much and you have a BC (big clutter) cleanup on your hands...but stop it with the "e" word please. Just dont do any interviews until you have something new to say. Save up on the credibility. Most will understand.

  11. #49
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    I hope I wasn't seen as anti-tank. I only meant that inevitable injuries will put us out of the playoff picture and force Massai's hand. Closer to the trade deadline, he will trade a couple of veteran guys to playoff teams for picks/prospects and the tank will happen on it's own because we have no depth.

  12. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Westvleteren wrote: View Post
    I hope I wasn't seen as anti-tank. I only meant that inevitable injuries will put us out of the playoff picture and force Massai's hand. Closer to the trade deadline, he will trade a couple of veteran guys to playoff teams for picks/prospects and the tank will happen on it's own because we have no depth.
    Why wait till the deadline? All I want for Christmas is a new starting SF.
    F*ck Brooklyn

  13. #51
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    That would be fantastic.

    If the *only* things MU accomplishes this year are the following, I'd consider the year a positive step forward:
    - Moving Gay for almost anything and making sure that $19 million isn't on the books next season
    - Replacing the coach this season or in the summer
    - Landing a top 6 pick in the 2014 draft

    (+ it would be easy to add any minor transactions (moving Lowry, Novak, etc.) that would add a late pick or a raw prospect and make sure there's additional cap space sooner.)

    These moves alone would put the Raps miles ahead next season in terms of building a roster with sustainable aspirations for real winning - instead of this patchwork "maybe we can make the 6-8 seed because the rest of the conference is really shitty" crap.

    It may all be a moot point anyway. This team is really bad. Really bad. "Tough schedule"? The Raps have yet to beat a +.500 team. News flash: this team isn't any good. They're 3 wins away from being 30th in a 30 team league, their most important players (DD, Amir, Jonas) are visibly frustrated already, and the current headlines are "When will the coach be fired?" and "When will the rebuild begin?" And we've got people talking playoffs here? I'll applaud the optimism and understand the short-sighted "I just wanna see playoff games at the ACC" sentiment, but seriously...

    Seriously.

    So many Raptor fans are putting their nose up to the likes of Philly, Boston, Charlotte, Orlando, Phoenix, Detroit, or Washington?

    Guess what pro-stay the course?

    All those teams who are supposedly tanking or just plain bad have as many wins or MORE than Toronto! IMAGINE!

    But haven't the Raptors had injuries? Ummm, nope.
    But haven't the Raptors played a tonne of games on the road? Ummm, nope. 3-6 at home, 3-5 on the road.

    I'm confused then. Why aren't they winning?


    PSSSSSST...... they suck.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  15. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Still, "tepid" interest probably only means Toronto is still asking too much in return. He's definitely tradeable.
    Could also mean that the season is still young, and some teams haven't developed a need for a Lowry-type yet.

    Just wait until Deron Williams' busted ankles literally fall off his body....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  17. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Why wait till the deadline? All I want for Christmas is a new starting SF.
    Heck I'd take the old one back over Rudy. James Johnson has no job right?

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  19. #54
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    Just for context about how fast these early season 'odds' can move, we were at 79% prior to the Golden State game. We dropped 8 points just in one night, and dropped another half point last night, even though we weren't playing. Similarly, our odds of the first overall pick went from 0.8 to 1.4 in that time, a more than 80% increase. If we lose a couple more games in a row, we're probably down in the low 60s or high 50s.

    All of which is to say that this early in the season, playoff odds are far too liquid to be meaningful. All it would take is for one of those non-playoff teams like NY, Brooklyn, Cleveland, or Charlotte to get hot and our playoff odds will probably drop to less than 50%.

  20. #55
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    This last quote is true, people are confusing selfishness for style of play. Rudy's not out there saying "f u Valanciunas", it's just that he truly believes he's giving the team the best chance to win.

    I still (basketball-wise) hate Gay, but I have a really hard time believing he's out there sabatoging the team. He's trying to win, he's just never been a ball sharer and you can't teach an old dog new tricks too often.
    Is there a possibility he intends to pad his stats so he can opt out for a lucrative long term contract? Would he consider that a priority? He could rationalize that as being "nothing personal". Free agency is a powerful motivator and he can choose where he goes too.

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  22. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Why wait till the deadline? All I want for Christmas is a new starting SF.
    He may not have a choice. What are the realistic options regarding moving Gay? I don't know of course, but one can imagine they are quite limited. Will MU move him for just expirings? Can you get a 1st rounder? Perhaps you could trade him for CV and Stuckey, or Wallace and Humphries, but is this gonna happen? Ujiri wants value back, I'm sure all could agree on that, so taking back bad contracts or expirings of players we don't want are unlikely to happen. There has to be a pick or a prospect or two in there for MU to pull the trigger, and what are the odds of that coming to fruition?

    I'm not saying it can't happen of course, I do remember the Bargs trade, but realistically speaking we may have Gay for the rest of the season, and if he opts in, perhaps a portion of the following season before he could be more easily traded as an expiring contract.

  23. #57
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Whatever the lottery odds are, this is my greatest fear: some meaningless end of the season winning streak. It's happened before. More than once.

    I won't be able to relax until after #82.

  24. #58
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Is there a possibility he intends to pad his stats so he can opt out for a lucrative long term contract? Would he consider that a priority? He could rationalize that as being "nothing personal". Free agency is a powerful motivator and he can choose where he goes too.
    If it is, I'd say it's backfiring. No way his value has gone up since the season started (very likely it's gone down). By playing such pitifully selfish basketball, he could be damaging his chances to get a new lucrative deal (at least as he hopes), and cornering himself into having to pick up the option (not that he'll cry about making 19 million next year).

  25. #59
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    He may not have a choice. What are the realistic options regarding moving Gay? I don't know of course, but one can imagine they are quite limited. Will MU move him for just expirings? Can you get a 1st rounder? Perhaps you could trade him for CV and Stuckey, or Wallace and Humphries, but is this gonna happen? Ujiri wants value back, I'm sure all could agree on that, so taking back bad contracts or expirings of players we don't want are unlikely to happen. There has to be a pick or a prospect or two in there for MU to pull the trigger, and what are the odds of that coming to fruition?

    I'm not saying it can't happen of course, I do remember the Bargs trade, but realistically speaking we may have Gay for the rest of the season, and if he opts in, perhaps a portion of the following season before he could be more easily traded as an expiring contract.
    Oh I know that he can't trade with himself, but the comment made it sound like the plan is to wait until the deadline; I was questioning why that would be the plan.

    At the same time, MU can get the ball rolling with conversations with teams. K-Hump and Boston is interesting because if Boston defaults into the playoffs (currently leading the Division and Rondo looks to return soon), then perhaps that is an option.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Oh I know that he can't trade with himself, but the comment made it sound like the plan is to wait until the deadline; I was questioning why that would be the plan.

    At the same time, MU can get the ball rolling with conversations with teams. K-Hump and Boston is interesting because if Boston defaults into the playoffs (currently leading the Division and Rondo looks to return soon), then perhaps that is an option.
    The problem with Boston is that they already have Wallace and Green. Wallace is a player I highly doubt Toronto being willing to absorb. Green gives you better value than Gay, so I don't know why Boston would make that switch, and I'm not sure they'd want to pair any combination of Gay-Green-Wallace together. It just seems like a very unlikely fit.

    If Boston did need a SF, I could see something like Hump + Lee + draft pick (maybe the 2015 Clippers pick for one that should be gettable) working out.

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