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Thread: TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

  1. #321
    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    can work = may or may not work

    barriers = obstacles which can be overcome

    So whats the difference exactly?
    we have to rely on circumstances beyond our control if we go the tanking route.
    We are in full control if we go toward the flag, and the only barrier I can see that way is the team themself

    and the barriers I'm talking about here are things that you can't get through at all, there is no where to go but to turn back in that case with going the tanking route.
    Last edited by peanutwoozle; Fri Dec 6th, 2013 at 03:41 PM.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    here is the post PW responded to



    0 reference to tanking as the ONLY way to sucess.
    You're technically absolutely correct, which is why I referred to "the opinion" (that has been expressed often in this back and forth spanning multiple threads), rather than saying he was responding to only that particular post.

    But I could be wrong.

  3. #323
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    We all cry as he laughs all the way to the bank
    We all boo as he laughs all the way to the bank

  4. #324
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    If it nets a good return, why not?
    Bet you're a big hit in Vegas at the craps tables.

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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    we have to rely on circumstances beyond our control if we go the tanking route.
    We are in full control if we go toward the flag, and the only barrier I can see that way is the team themself

    and the barriers I'm talking about here are things that you can't get through at all, there is no where to go but to turn back in that case with going the tanking route.


    I don't see how we rely on circumstances beyond our control if we do proper rebuild scratch.... Yu ll have a high pick(1-5) cap space(which you'll decide who to sign) and prospects and picks(which you decide who to trade with)... I understand the pick landing on a high pick has some luck to it... But so is sticking with this roster and making tweaks... For example we all agree how good of a player Gay was.. And we traded for him and EVERYONE thought we are making that next leap... And yu know how that turned out.... There's luck involved in both direction... Trading for new players involves luck... You have to hope and pray they mesh with the current roster... You have to hope and pray they stay the same as they were in their previous team... Everything involves a small piece of luck... It's up to the GM and the scouting staffs to mitigate that risk.... And make the right pick.. And trade for the right player... Tweak the roster the right way.... So don't overlook the option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks.... Deny it...


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    Quote ball4life wrote: View Post
    I don't see how we rely on circumstances beyond our control if we do proper rebuild scratch.... Yu ll have a high pick(1-5) cap space(which you'll decide who to sign) and prospects and picks(which you decide who to trade with)... I understand the pick landing on a high pick has some luck to it... But so is sticking with this roster and making tweaks... For example we all agree how good of a player Gay was.. And we traded for him and EVERYONE thought we are making that next leap... And yu know how that turned out.... There's luck involved in both direction... Trading for new players involves luck... You have to hope and pray they mesh with the current roster... You have to hope and pray they stay the same as they were in their previous team... Everything involves a small piece of luck... It's up to the GM and the scouting staffs to mitigate that risk.... And make the right pick.. And trade for the right player... Tweak the roster the right way.... So don't overlook the option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks.... Deny it...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks"

    One year? Well, that's exactly what was already done 3 years ago. Finished with 3rd best chance of winning the lottery. Raptor "luck" dropped the pick to 5th. How's that pleasing you so far? You mean one more year? How many years should that "one year" go on for? Tried bottoming out the next year too, while Jonas stayed in Europe, only the gang of scrub one year (or 10 day) rentals didn't buy into tanking (as players can't and won't), and only got the 8th pick in the lottery. Both those lottery picks have 1 year under their belt, but you want just one more year? Hmmm, year before those two, didn't try and trade for talent either and landed 13th pick (Davis). Year before that, same thing and landed DD, 9th pick. One year, huh. Was already in the lottery, including a 3rd worst record already, 4 times.

    But blow it all up and we're sure to have lottery and pick luck this time? What if we tank, but players don't, as usual, wind up with 7th worst record, the 9th worst wins the lottery, like Rose going to the Bulls, or 8th worst wins it, like Irving the year we drafted Jv after dropping 2 spots, we wind up with the 8th pick again. Do you really think the 8th pick is going to be a sure fire franchise changer?

    Oh right, "do it the right way". Sounds simple. You don't think far more experienced and knowledgeable basketball minds than any of us have been trying to do it the right way? One pick, after gutting a team, has never won anything for that team. Oh, Cavs got to finals once, but where are they now? Rebuilding again after LBJ bolted. Dwight? Gone elsewhere too. CP3? Gone elsewhere too. Melo? Gone elsewhere. Griffin? Well, he can dunk! In the past 20 years, has any team "done it the right way" by gutting their team? I don't know any that have won any rings, and only two that have each reached the finals once. So what exactly is this "doing it the right way" that everyone talks about as if it's a step 1-2-3 thing, cuz nobody in the NBA has won anything with it yet, and only two teams have even come close with this apparent method. Note SAS did NOT gut and bottom out, period.

  8. #327
    Raptors Republic Rookie bursh's Avatar
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    Default Why Tank: Let's Learn from 2007.

    How we can learn from 2007: An argument for tanking.

    In 2007, the Leastern Conference was once again, at its finest. And by finest, I mean most terrible. During the 2007 NBA season, the Eastern Conference featured the decline of Shaq, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd, and Steph Marbury. The Pacers were suffering the fallout from the ĎMalice,í Chicago was led by Kirk HinrichÖthe first time, and Boston hadnít even begun to dream of the Big Three yet. In summary: the East was horrendous.

    But how does this relate to our 2013 Raptors?
    Iíll tell you.

    During that 2007 season, the Toronto Raptors won the Atlantic Division behind the almighty triumvirate that is T.J. Ford, Jorge Garbajosa, and Anthony Parker. We all proclaimed Bryan Colangelo to be a genius, parades were thrown celebrating Joey Grahamís bench contributions (ok, I got carried away here), and all was well in Raptor Land.
    ÖUntil two years later. When the Raptors once again found themselves occupying the dregs of the Eastern Conference, finishing third last.

    So what does this teach us?
    Well, many who are against the Raptors tanking this season proclaim that we should instead push for one of the lower playoff spots, in the hopes of getting that ever important (and quite subjectively intangible) playoff experience for our players. Yet, besides the fact that most of the current Raptors arenít under contract for the foreseeable future to put that experience to use, we must also learn from 2007. When we pushed for the playoffs, and grabbed the 3rd overall seed (thanks to divisional seeding), and did nothing in the playoffs. Or perhaps the next year, 2008, when we again grabbed a playoff spot, only to again bow out early. A mere two years later, we were in the cellar again, no better for our precious ďexperience,Ē and without the franchise player we could have had by bottoming out.

    However, letís look at then-Seattle, who finished 5th last in the league, only to receive the second pick in that yearís draft. In what was an incredibly weak draft they managed to land Kevin Durant. The rest is history. Is this selective memory? Yes, as I ignored some of the other horrible draft choices that were available to that yearís bottom five, however I believe this to be offset by the incredible strength of this yearís draft, where scouts and GMs alike agree that there are 6 or 7 franchise altering players available.

    So letís learn from 2007. Instead of pushing for a few quick playoff exits and a trip back to where we stand now, letís do the right thing, and tank. And perhaps grab a franchise-altering player that we have been begging from since Vincent Lamar back in the day.

    Thatís why we tank. Now the question remains, will the Raptors learn from their own recent history, or will we resign ourselves to a return to this frustrating plateau.
    TANK...OR DIE TRYING.

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  10. #328
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    "option of bottoming out one year for the good of the team solely cuz it involves "luck" afterall, all of the raptors playoff appearances came on the heels of 4th and 5th lottery picks"

    One year? Well, that's exactly what was already done 3 years ago. Finished with 3rd best chance of winning the lottery. Raptor "luck" dropped the pick to 5th. How's that pleasing you so far? You mean one more year? How many years should that "one year" go on for? Tried bottoming out the next year too, while Jonas stayed in Europe, only the gang of scrub one year (or 10 day) rentals didn't buy into tanking (as players can't and won't), and only got the 8th pick in the lottery. Both those lottery picks have 1 year under their belt, but you want just one more year? Hmmm, year before those two, didn't try and trade for talent either and landed 13th pick (Davis). Year before that, same thing and landed DD, 9th pick. One year, huh. Was already in the lottery, including a 3rd worst record already, 4 times.

    But blow it all up and we're sure to have lottery and pick luck this time? What if we tank, but players don't, as usual, wind up with 7th worst record, the 9th worst wins the lottery, like Rose going to the Bulls, or 8th worst wins it, like Irving the year we drafted Jv after dropping 2 spots, we wind up with the 8th pick again. Do you really think the 8th pick is going to be a sure fire franchise changer?

    Oh right, "do it the right way". Sounds simple. You don't think far more experienced and knowledgeable basketball minds than any of us have been trying to do it the right way? One pick, after gutting a team, has never won anything for that team. Oh, Cavs got to finals once, but where are they now? Rebuilding again after LBJ bolted. Dwight? Gone elsewhere too. CP3? Gone elsewhere too. Melo? Gone elsewhere. Griffin? Well, he can dunk! In the past 20 years, has any team "done it the right way" by gutting their team? I don't know any that have won any rings, and only two that have each reached the finals once. So what exactly is this "doing it the right way" that everyone talks about as if it's a step 1-2-3 thing, cuz nobody in the NBA has won anything with it yet, and only two teams have even come close with this apparent method. Note SAS did NOT gut and bottom out, period.

    I think people are missing the point of the tank, at least from how I see it.

    The idea, for me, in tanking is to start your build from a solid foundation. Do we currently have any players that we'd consider as foundational pieces? Sure, maybe JV, DD could have been but I think his growth/growing frustration will prevent him from being a cornerstone (bad timing bro). Other than that what is our foundation? Maybe throw Amir in the mix but he's an old 26, so I'm not sure he'll be around when were competitive. We need to strip this team down to the bare bones and see what there is to work with. The BC patch jobs don't work and they don't win championships. Sure maybe the teams listed above didn't work out great and win championships and sure some of the stars may have fled, but most of those teams are still better than the Raps. Besides how many different teams have won the championship in the past 10 years? 4 or 5?? Saying that the tank doesn't work so we should abandon it is kinda ridiculous because what proven system does work? The spurs model is great but it was built on a solid foundation, everything from the front office to the trainers and coaches scouts then players. Ujiri is evaluating our foundation right now, and I believe by the time this year is out he will strip it to the bones to start building properly for the first time.

  11. #329
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    I think people are missing the point of the tank, at least from how I see it.

    The idea, for me, in tanking is to start your build from a solid foundation. Do we currently have any players that we'd consider as foundational pieces? Sure, maybe JV, DD could have been but I think his growth/growing frustration will prevent him from being a cornerstone (bad timing bro). Other than that what is our foundation? Maybe throw Amir in the mix but he's an old 26, so I'm not sure he'll be around when were competitive. We need to strip this team down to the bare bones and see what there is to work with. The BC patch jobs don't work and they don't win championships. Sure maybe the teams listed above didn't work out great and win championships and sure some of the stars may have fled, but most of those teams are still better than the Raps. Besides how many different teams have won the championship in the past 10 years? 4 or 5?? Saying that the tank doesn't work so we should abandon it is kinda ridiculous because what proven system does work? The spurs model is great but it was built on a solid foundation, everything from the front office to the trainers and coaches scouts then players. Ujiri is evaluating our foundation right now, and I believe by the time this year is out he will strip it to the bones to start building properly for the first time.
    I agree with you.

    If I didn't know better I'd swear a lot of posters have built their house directly on the beach.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #330
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    I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
    But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
    I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    The article is meant to prove that the vast majority of top players in the league are drafted in the top 5. As the Raptors are in need of one of the top players in the league...therefor being in the top 5 is in our best interests.

    The article is just a single player basis analysis......not to prove that top 5 picks win championships because championships are dependent on much more than that one player.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
    But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
    I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.
    Exactly. I mean, after reading the thread title I'm expecting to see some pretty powerful pro-tanking argument that nobody's made before. Instead it's more like: (a) good players win awards, (b) good players are drafted high. Um, ok....

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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    I think we can beat Phoenix, and maybe LA if Kobe doesn't play.
    Kobe is playing.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
    But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
    I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.
    If you draft higher you are more likely to draft an all star...big jump from an all star to win a championship.

  19. #335
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Good points on the reach of the article.

    Has a team ever won a championship without one?

    All stars don't win championships.
    The teams built around them do.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  21. #336
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    5 game losing stream into this:

    Raptors upcoming schedule: Sun 12/8 @Lakers | Tue 12/10 Spurs | Fri 12/13 76ers | Sat 12/14 @Bulls | Wed 12/18 Bobcats | Fri 12/20 @Mavericks | Sun 12/22 @Thunder | Mon 12/23 @Spurs

    LET THE TANK ROLL!

  22. #337
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    I think we can beat Phoenix, and maybe LA if Kobe doesn't play.

    I agree they could. I also agree they could beat the Lakers in LA even if Kobe comes back...

    However, the fact remains, they didn't beat the Suns last night. Having homecourt advantage in the first round, even if we win the division is looking less likely than ever. Can we win a playoff series without homecourt advantage? Is their any evidence that the "intangibles" of getting playoff experience lead to future success?

    So many questions...
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    http://www.raptorshq.com/2013/12/5/5...-duncan-pacers

    Really good article. If anyone still isn't on the tank movement you will be after reading that. The only think I didn't like about the article was using Allstar to judge someone's skill but aside from that it's a very compelling article.
    Spurs model is the preferred blueprint. They MANAGE well.

  24. #339
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Default Bill Simmons: Poopocalypse II

    Bill Simmons breaks down the Eastern Conference as always lots of funny stuff here are the raptors related bits below click here for the full article

    From the Wizards section:
    Random Thought: Did you know Nene isn't one of the top-50 rebounders right now? Or that Lance Stephenson and Evan Turner average more rebounds than him? One of the All-Star Weekend events should be a rebounding "competition" called "Brick House" with Nene, Brook Lopez, Andrea Bargnani and Chris Bosh — two at a time, head-to-head, as they have two minutes to grab as many missed 22-footers from Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan as possible.

    SportVU Revelation: We're cheating — I'm using a shot chart stat here. But advanced metrics hate any offense built around players unapologetically missing "long 2s," a.k.a. Gay-DeRozan syndrome. Through Tuesday's games, only two NBA teams placed two teammates in the top 10 for "most attempted long 2s" (anything between 15 and 19 feet): Toronto (Gay and DeRozan) and Washington (Beal and Wall). Beal had the lowest percentage of anyone in the top 50 (31.3 percent); Wall was second-lowest (33.3 percent). Jeez, even Gay (38.4 percent) and DeRozan (36.1 percent) are better than that — and they have a shooting syndrome named after them. Shoot 3s or go to the rim, young WPBTs. Trust the math. Avoid GDR syndrome.
    Raptors Section
    11. TORONTO RAPTORS, 6-11

    The Good News: GM Masai Ujiri wants to bottom out while creating cap space and stockpiling cost-effective assets. That explains why he's trying to trade everyone not named "Jonas" right now, and that explains why Dwane Casey will coach all 82 games. It's all for the greater good. And if that's not enough, Andrew Wiggins is Canadian. So there's that.

    The Bad News: Quick impression of Masai trying to trade Rudy Gay right now …

    Masai: "Hey, I wanted to see if you had any interest in Rudy."

    Other GM: "What are you thinking?"

    Masai: "Well, he's on the books for only $17.9 million this season, then he's a free agent."

    Other GM: "Wait, I thought Rudy had a player option for $19.3 million next year."

    Masai: "You're right, he does! I totally forgot! (Holds his hand over the phone and whispers 'They know' to his assistant.) Actually, lemme call you back."

    Most Interesting Subplot: Is there a better stealth tanking asset than Dwane Casey? He's coached nearly 300 games (career record: 116-171) and still can't grasp the whole "When we're down by a possession in the final 25 seconds, and we don't have the ball, we need to foul the other team" thing. (I wish Dwane Casey coached an NFL team — I'd love to see him trying to figure out timeouts and challenges.) And look, there's an art to tanking — you can't make it seem like you're throwing games. The subtle stuff goes the furthest. Like shelving one of your best players with "tendinitis" with five weeks to play. Like playing two or three subpar players about 10 minutes per game more than you should. Like trying dopey experiments that can't work along the lines of, "Hey, we think Rudy can play a little point guard for us!" Like keeping Casey around for an entire year. As we inch closer and closer toward the Tankapalooza 2014 homestretch, it's going to be the little things that count.

    Random Thought: Was Gay's uncorrected eyesight really the problem last summer? Let's see …

    Last season: 41.6 percent FG, 32.3 percent 3FG, 81.4 percent FT
    This season: 38.8 percent FG, 37.5 percent 3FG, 76.2 percent FT

    (Back to the drawing board … )

    SportVU Revelation: One of the many reasons why Roy Hibbert is running away with Defensive Player of the Year: He challenges 10.1 field goals per game at the rim, but opponents score on only 38.2 percent of those shots. By contrast, opponents shoot 58 percent at the rim if it's DeAndre Jordan protecting and 56.9 percent if it's Boogie Cousins. If it's Jonas Valanciunas? We're looking at 52.6 percent. You probably already knew this.

    Worst-Case Scenario: Raptors fans cheer on Masai as he keeps trading off starters and sabotaging this year's season … right until the moment when he dumps Demar DeRozan on Dallas for Brandan Wright and an expiring contract belonging to … (wait for it) … (wait for it) … Mr. Vince Carter.

    (And then? Rioting. Lots and lots of rioting.)

    Prognosis: Somehow, someway, Toronto lands in the bottom four for the East. If it sticks Cleveland or Milwaukee with Gay's contract, even better.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Dec 7th, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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  26. #340
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I agree they could. I also agree they could beat the Lakers in LA even if Kobe comes back...

    However, the fact remains, they didn't beat the Suns last night. Having homecourt advantage in the first round, even if we win the division is looking less likely than ever. Can we win a playoff series without homecourt advantage? Is their any evidence that the "intangibles" of getting playoff experience lead to future success?

    So many questions...
    Raps are 3-6 at home.

    They struggle to win anywhere

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