Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 10 18 19 20 21 LastLast
Results 381 to 400 of 403

Thread: TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

  1. #381
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    2,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Here's the thing. With Gay and Casey, we are worse than the consensus pre-season tank favourites (Celtics and Sixers), in perhaps the worst division in the history of professional sports. Maybe Simmons nailed it. Stay the course = best tank odds. Keep sucking right until the end, under the stealth guise of 'playoff push', which actually might be possible in the Atlantic this year.
    Sad but true. Gay's current production will help us lose games but I still want him gone so that minutes and touches can flow through Ross and JV.

    I've said before and I'll say it again , I don't think there is much benefit to firing Casey during this season. We won't be able to lure a premiere candidate in season with this roster and any of the next best things (assistants, D-league coaches, etc) will still be available in the offseason.

  2. #382
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,462
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    A reminder/addition to above discussion....this draft of 2014 is a much weighted reason for myself anyway to go the route/sacrifice this season and be in the conversation within the top 4-6 position prior to the balls falling. Then work a deal with Gilbert (Cavs) to rent his son for the draw. If this was the quality of the 2006 draft eg. I may have been on shaky ground re my "tank".

  3. #383
    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Waterloo
    Posts
    594
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm not a huge fan of tanking as I am a fan of improving the amount of assets you have. I like the current team (minus rudy) and would like to see A) If Lowry is interested in re-signing, B) If Ross and Demar can play effectively together, C) What the team would do with a half-decent coach. I think you have to get rid of Rudy, even if he's helping us tank, because he's hurting the development of the youngsters and showing them some bad habits. Everyone else, I say you keep and see what they can do with a good coach. But if someone offers a good proposal for everyone but Jonas? Ex the bobcats pick and butler? You do that deal and go into tanking mode.

  4. #384
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,227
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Oh, I most certainly have read most of the arguments. In fact, I got a shout-out thread from my man, Matt52 himself, on the topic of franchise building, encompassing the draft, management, culture and all those topics.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...get-him-golden


    Perhaps you haven't read any of that, but no matter. There certainly are many posters (Matt52, Craig, Craiger, CalRaps, Nilanka, Axel, etc, etc...), and also bloggers like Tim. W, who I respect and have gone back and forth with many times on the subject.

    To many pro-tankers, the key to building a championship contender is acquiring elite talent (I agree), and their opinion is that the best way to do that for this Raptors team is to tank this season to get a top 5 pick in this years draft. Would you call that last sentence, putting words in anybody's mouth? I think it sums up the sentiment of a lot of the posters here - no? In fact there was a whole thread dedicated to the topic that top players were top draft picks that is supposed to change the opinion of all anti-tankers into tankers. Did you not read it?

    The Cavs followed the tanking for picks model to perfection and it didn't work. Other teams (Pacers, Grizzlies, Rockets, Blazers-maybe) are showing that there are other ways to build contenders than through tanking.

    I mean, even tanking itself isn't proving to be easy for teams that were pre-season locks. Q: Is trading Gay tanking, or is a Ewing Theory move that will actually get us more wins. Is firing Casey a good or bad move for the tank or good/bad for the long-term development of the franchise. Tanking ain't easy.
    golden I'm confused by your posts.

    I've not read anything by any pro tankers around here that one good draft pick in this draft solves everything.

    It is merely the start.

    The key for Toronto is to find the player to build with and around. Draft is most likely place to find.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  5. #385
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,035
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    golden I'm confused by your posts.

    I've not read anything by any pro tankers around here that one good draft pick in this draft solves everything.

    It is merely the start.

    The key for Toronto is to find the player to build with and around. Draft is most likely place to find.
    I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

    Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?
    Last edited by golden; Sun Dec 8th, 2013 at 11:29 AM.

  6. #386
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,185
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It's about turning over the roster, getting the maximum return on players who aren't in your long term plans (Gay, Lowry, potentially some others depending on what they'd bring back) and helping the younger guys who remain reach their full potential.

    But while this is all going on, the Raptors would be crazy not to gun for as high of a draft pick as possible. It's no longer a question that they need more elite talent, and the top five of the draft gives you a relatively good chance of landing some of it. Once the season moves from a win now mandate to a rebuilding/youth development/whatever other descriptor you'd like to use phase, why wouldn't you want as high of a pick as possible? Is it the morality of quote-unquote tanking?

    The importance of culture, coaching, chemistry is certainly real. But trying to install those things while the team is so poorly constructed from top to bottom is an exercise in futility. We've supposedly been building a winning culture in Raptorland for the last two and a half years, but at the end of the day it gets undermined by a lack of talent and a poorly put together team. Building a culture with guys who won't be here in 9 months time seems like a lot of tire spinning to me.
    Last edited by Fully; Sun Dec 8th, 2013 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #387
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    303
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

    Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?
    The people who expect the raptors to trade away all their decent (we don't have any good ones) players for expirings and hope the lottery ball bounces our way are so very few, the majority just wants players who have been in the league for 8 years and haven't improved in years off the roster, people who eat up most of the cap space off the roster. Make room for the younger guys who will be in uniform in 4 years. You don't haven have to get draft picks, recently drafted players is good enough for most also.

    Me personnally, if Lowry & Gay are traded away for 1st rounders (to make up for the ones we gave up) and the DD,JV,Ross,Amir, Fields carry the team to undefeated record for the rest of the season I'll be ecstatic, because that's something you can build on. A team with Lowry & Gay as its centerpiece offers no flexibility.

    We need to make a poll to replace the word Tanking with one that means young asset/draft pick hoarding and watch the stupid debate disappear. No one wants to loose, we just don't want this roster, because we don't have faith in its core, and its core has been proving us right since january of last year. That and we ban the word wiggins untill the draft lottery day.

    Every team has a training camp, every team has internal growth, if that's the plan to get over the competition then that's the equivalent of hoping to win the lottery.

  8. Like white men can't jump, Fully liked this post
  9. #388
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    372
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Spectacle tank.

    Masai fires Casey, hires Lawrence Frank, and bans defense.
    Except steals and blocks.
    Staying in front of your man?
    Nope.
    Take ball.

    We trade them.
    All of them.
    And then buy-outs and waivings.

    Roster spots are filled by systematically signing every eligable player to a one-time 10 day contract.
    Fans are intrigued by all the new faces, and tune in to see who will play the worst.

    The Raptors force Shaqtin' a fool to expand to 10 clips.
    They are still featured in 9 of them, with Bargnani taking the remaining spot.

    Records for individual performance are broken on a nightly basis, by players from opposing teams.
    Audiences throughout the U.S become avid watchers of Raptors basketball.
    A trend is observed that every team goes on a winning streak after playing the Raptors.

    DeMar DeRozan goes for 82 in his first return to the ACC.
    In Rudy's, he becomes the only player in the NBA to shoot less than 40% against the Raptors.

    Raptors get the #1 pick, and draft a yet unknown Nigerian prospect that has three arms.

  10. #389
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    When the season was starting and Bryan was on the hot seat I was on the 'anti-tank' side.. but quickly changed my stance when I looked at the payroll and the quality of the roster that Bryan put together.

    I don't see a team that can strive for playoffs with Lowry and Gay. Heck we are 1 win apart from 3rd worst in the league... it's pretty brutal. So how do you prepare this team to start winning consistently, but also have some flexibility in the payroll to continue to get better (Indiana model with David West)?

    If Masai was able to pull a rabbit out of his hat and was able to swap Gay/Lowry for Horford and Rondo, and also keep his draft picks I'd be happy.. but that's unrealistic. There is a more likely scenario of MU being able to move Gay/Lowry for expiring contracts, prospects and picks. And that move will probably hurt their chances this season but they are hurting anyway. Then next season MU will have more flexibility where he can make trades (DD, Amir, some of the prospects) to get an established all-star type vet that can work within their system. That vet with the prospects they get via trade/draft can possibly help TL/MU/Drake to convince notable free agents to sign here. It may not work but they would still have picks/prospects and those are very valuable commodities in the new CBA.

    Cleveland and Charlotte keep being cited as poorly run teams after tanking. But Cleveland and Charlotte can easily get cap space back.. they have prospects, large expiring contracts (or in Cleveland's case Bynum's buyout) and additional picks that they can use to get better immediately. For example if Cleveland wanted to make an offer for Love (and Minnesota is borderline .500 again) they have the assets to make it happen. You just need a GM that knows how to evaluate talent and MU is actually really good at it.

  11. #390
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,227
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I'm probably getting a bit confused too, but I'm questioning even if tanking this year is going to be successful starting point and the risk/reward of doing that, considering: (1) history of tank teams like Cleveland, Cats, etc.., (2) the draft record of even respected GMs, (3) the success of teams actually trying to tank this year, (4) Dwane Casey ... And even if we pick the right player, how fast is it really going to be, anyway? And how sustainable? Masai himself, even alludes to the 'karma' of teams that intentionally try to do it.

    Are there other ways to turnaround a franchise faster that don't involve consciously trying to position yourself as low as possible and damaging the other assets on your roster? Personally I lean towards: (a) changing the coach, (b) internal player development & (c) trading for other teams picks over tanking for your own pick. After looking at all the examples and great arguments here, I'm starting to think that tanking for your own pick is really a last resort, desperation type of move. Raps are bad, but I'm not sure we're all the way to pathetic, are we?
    You make good and valid points, in my opinion.

    But here is the reality: the Raptors are awful.

    They are currently tied for 7th worst record in the league based on win percentage and when tied for wins they are 3rd worst after 18 games.

    This team has a lower ceiling than I thought possible which was .500 and a 7/8 seed.

    So I don't think the Raptors need to 'tank' because they are already a bad team. The point of tanking is to intentionally be bad - well, the Raptors are already bad.

    What the Raptors need to do now is delay getting better. Considering they have very few tradeable assets, drafts take place once per year, and they have no cap space should Gay pick up his option, delaying improvement is not a difficult task either.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  12. #391
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Niagara
    Posts
    3,084
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Guys, Toronto is bad. They are not "tanking", they are bad.

    they DESERVE a high pick.

    The word tank is being thrown around fairly generously, and I think it's silly. Toronto just sucks. And they are rebuilding, as really, they don't even have, other than Gay, who is off the books anyhow after next year, any bad contracts outside of fields....even he can be seen as useful in some scenario's.

    All it is, it a bad team, in a special year, who likely hopes to land in the top spot of the draft. Is it a guarentee? Nope, but its a start. sneaking into the first round in a horrific division, is NOT a good start, its just bad. Contrary to what people her eseem to think, it ain't gonna allow for an Indiana build, this ain't Indiana, the core here isnt as good, and Toronto isn't likely to attract much in the way of talent over the next few years.

    its about recognizing your obstacles, and playing to the strongest odds.

    ALL ROUTES ARE GAMBLES AT SOME LEVEL.

    so that said, I pray the current squad stays intact, because they suck. And I hope they keep playing to lose. i wanna see a canadian superstar on the Raptors. I want that story, I want that circus.

  13. Like Masai Ujiri, slaw liked this post
  14. #392
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,101
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The way this roster is playing makes this entire discussion moot. Call it what you want, this team sucks. Whether you like it or not, or agree with the process by which the Raptors have arrived here, they are going to be in the lottery again.....

    It doesn't really matter if they trade a bunch of guys or not or "rebuild", "tank", "re-tool" or whatever. They are just bad. They will be bad for the rest of the year regardless of whether any changes are made. Will they be the worst or the worst? Probably not, but they'll be in the mix.

  15. #393
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Niagara
    Posts
    3,084
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    fingers crossed

  16. #394
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,035
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The way this roster is playing makes this entire discussion moot. Call it what you want, this team sucks. Whether you like it or not, or agree with the process by which the Raptors have arrived here, they are going to be in the lottery again.....

    It doesn't really matter if they trade a bunch of guys or not or "rebuild", "tank", "re-tool" or whatever. They are just bad. They will be bad for the rest of the year regardless of whether any changes are made. Will they be the worst or the worst? Probably not, but they'll be in the mix.
    After watching the Brad Steven's Celtics dismantle the Knicks this afternoon and seeing how Jeff Hornacek has the Suns playing watchable fundamentally sound basketball, I'm convinced that the first move last summer should have been to replace the coach. Even if Casey helps us get a high draft pick, the downside of tanking (even if successul) is the massive devaluation and the increasing untradeability of every other asset on the roster. Look at the Celtics: all of a sudden Sullinger, Crawford and Humphries are actual trade assets. Whereas Rudy Gay is a league-wide butt of jokes - when he was once considered the next guy in line to be an all-star. We are seeing the worst side of Gay, left un-checked by Casey, and he is now exposed as the NBA poster child for the "20ppg player who makes your team worse." What GM would be brave/stupid enough to trade for a guy like that? (Knicks, Pelicans, Pistons, Kings - I hope?). Whereas, Monta Ellis (who is Rudy Gay of the backcourt), has rehabbed his 'inefficient chucker' image while playing for a strict, organized coach like Rick Carlisle who keeps his players on a tight lease. That's exactly the type of coach that Gay needs.

    Somebody mentioned that the Cavs have great young assets that could be flipped easily - but the problem is that everybody's going to be making offers at 10 cents on the dollar for Waiters, Thompson, Bennett and Varejao. . IMO, getting the right coach is the first move - regardless of the talent available. If the guy we want/need (e.g. SVG) is not available, then I'd waste no time in rolling the dice on a current assistant, who might be the next Vogel or Brooks. I don't see much risk in that. Ross and JV are going sideways at a time when key playing habits are getting ingrained and they should be showing steady improvement, and Gay/Amir are going backwards and Lowry/DD are pretty much what's expected.

  17. #395
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,227
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    After watching the Brad Steven's Celtics dismantle the Knicks this afternoon and seeing how Jeff Hornacek has the Suns playing watchable fundamentally sound basketball, I'm convinced that the first move last summer should have been to replace the coach. Even if Casey helps us get a high draft pick, the downside of tanking (even if successul) is the massive devaluation and the increasing untradeability of every other asset on the roster. Look at the Celtics: all of a sudden Sullinger, Crawford and Humphries are actual trade assets. Whereas Rudy Gay is a league-wide butt of jokes - when he was once considered the next guy in line to be an all-star. We are seeing the worst side of Gay, left un-checked by Casey, and he is now exposed as the NBA poster child for the "20ppg player who makes your team worse." What GM would be brave/stupid enough to trade for a guy like that? (Knicks, Pelicans, Pistons, Kings - I hope?). Whereas, Monta Ellis (who is Rudy Gay of the backcourt), has rehabbed his 'inefficient chucker' image while playing for a strict, organized coach like Rick Carlisle who keeps his players on a tight lease. That's exactly the type of coach that Gay needs.

    Somebody mentioned that the Cavs have great young assets that could be flipped easily - but the problem is that everybody's going to be making offers at 10 cents on the dollar for Waiters, Thompson, Bennett and Varejao. . IMO, getting the right coach is the first move - regardless of the talent available. If the guy we want/need (e.g. SVG) is not available, then I'd waste no time in rolling the dice on a current assistant, who might be the next Vogel or Brooks. I don't see much risk in that. Ross and JV are going sideways at a time when key playing habits are getting ingrained and they should be showing steady improvement, and Gay/Amir are going backwards and Lowry/DD are pretty much what's expected.
    Like Rudy Gay?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  18. #396
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    589
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default


  19. Like Superjudge liked this post
  20. #397
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Out of curiosity what do you guys think tanking does to the mental state of young developing players? I am not pro-tank or anti-tank, I am just curious, as an athlete, what an ultimate losing culture does for a team. You know you are playing for a loser if you are tanking, and you know the goal is no longer to win (at least in the short term.) How would that effect a young player? I personally would want to move to another team as quickly as possible. Or do you think that "tanking" is healthy for the mentality of a sports team and its developing players because they see the potential to win in a few years, and that they can accept the fact that they are losers at the moment but could possibly win in the future? (Valanciunas seems very frustrated with the recent loses, if we go into full tank mode will he be able to handle it?)
    Last edited by ratorsforthewin13; Sun Dec 8th, 2013 at 06:31 PM.

  21. #398
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,035
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Like Rudy Gay?
    That's exactly my point. Casey has driven Gay's market value into the ground. Is there really any risk in changing the coach, asap? Seems like the only way his value can go is up, which it probably will, if Gay lands with a half-decent coach and culture.
    Last edited by golden; Sun Dec 8th, 2013 at 06:30 PM.

  22. #399
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ratorsforthewin13 wrote: View Post
    Out of curiosity what do you guys think tanking does to the mental state of young developing players? I am not pro-tank or anti-tank, I am just curious, as an athlete, what an ultimate losing culture does for a team. You know you are playing for a loser if you are tanking, and you know the goal is no longer to win (at least in the short term.) How would that effect a young player? I personally would want to move to another team as quickly as possible. Or do you think that "tanking" is healthy for the mentality of a sports team and its developing players because they see the potential to win in a few years, and that they can accept the fact that they are losers at the moment but could possibly win in the future? (Valanciunas seems very frustrated with the recent loses, if we go into full tank mode will he be able to handle it?)
    First off, I don't think losses really damage a young player's development. A guy's personality matters, and if he's got solid character, he will push through. If it lasts for seasons (like 4-5+) it will, or at least could bug anybody, but if it's only a year or two, that's fine.

    Secondly, I think Jonas is frustrated more by his role and the shitty ball the team is playing than by the losses themselves. If he felt like he's being allowed to contribute all he can, and that the team was playing the right way, even if after gutting some talent and basically expecting more losses, he'd probably feel better and less frustrated.

    The most recent obvious example is OKC (Not trying to bring up their model). Tanking certainly didn't damage the development or confidence of KD, Jeff Green, or Westbrook.

    *To expand on OKC. They were also hovering around .500 for roughly half of their breakout season, and despite being led by young players coming off tanking years, really righted the ship that year to win 50 games (with a great 2nd half to the season). Another team led by young players could've easily imploded....Except OKC has guys with the right character in an environment that stresses that type of character and avoids players who don't embody it.

    Winning culture isn't created by winning, it's created by the approach and character of people in the organization, from ownership/upper management down to the last player on the bench.

    **I also think even a guy who experiences years of losing isn't really damaged, but may be playing worse by the last year or two of it, and probably needs a change of scenery to bounce back. But in such a situation, the change of scenery can be all a guy needs to get his head back in the game.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Dec 8th, 2013 at 07:05 PM.

  23. Like golden liked this post
  24. #400
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,227
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Debates settled:

    #tankON
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 10 18 19 20 21 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •