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TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

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  • Guys, Toronto is bad. They are not "tanking", they are bad.

    they DESERVE a high pick.

    The word tank is being thrown around fairly generously, and I think it's silly. Toronto just sucks. And they are rebuilding, as really, they don't even have, other than Gay, who is off the books anyhow after next year, any bad contracts outside of fields....even he can be seen as useful in some scenario's.

    All it is, it a bad team, in a special year, who likely hopes to land in the top spot of the draft. Is it a guarentee? Nope, but its a start. sneaking into the first round in a horrific division, is NOT a good start, its just bad. Contrary to what people her eseem to think, it ain't gonna allow for an Indiana build, this ain't Indiana, the core here isnt as good, and Toronto isn't likely to attract much in the way of talent over the next few years.

    its about recognizing your obstacles, and playing to the strongest odds.

    ALL ROUTES ARE GAMBLES AT SOME LEVEL.

    so that said, I pray the current squad stays intact, because they suck. And I hope they keep playing to lose. i wanna see a canadian superstar on the Raptors. I want that story, I want that circus.

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    • The way this roster is playing makes this entire discussion moot. Call it what you want, this team sucks. Whether you like it or not, or agree with the process by which the Raptors have arrived here, they are going to be in the lottery again.....

      It doesn't really matter if they trade a bunch of guys or not or "rebuild", "tank", "re-tool" or whatever. They are just bad. They will be bad for the rest of the year regardless of whether any changes are made. Will they be the worst or the worst? Probably not, but they'll be in the mix.

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      • fingers crossed

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        • slaw wrote: View Post
          The way this roster is playing makes this entire discussion moot. Call it what you want, this team sucks. Whether you like it or not, or agree with the process by which the Raptors have arrived here, they are going to be in the lottery again.....

          It doesn't really matter if they trade a bunch of guys or not or "rebuild", "tank", "re-tool" or whatever. They are just bad. They will be bad for the rest of the year regardless of whether any changes are made. Will they be the worst or the worst? Probably not, but they'll be in the mix.
          After watching the Brad Steven's Celtics dismantle the Knicks this afternoon and seeing how Jeff Hornacek has the Suns playing watchable fundamentally sound basketball, I'm convinced that the first move last summer should have been to replace the coach. Even if Casey helps us get a high draft pick, the downside of tanking (even if successul) is the massive devaluation and the increasing untradeability of every other asset on the roster. Look at the Celtics: all of a sudden Sullinger, Crawford and Humphries are actual trade assets. Whereas Rudy Gay is a league-wide butt of jokes - when he was once considered the next guy in line to be an all-star. We are seeing the worst side of Gay, left un-checked by Casey, and he is now exposed as the NBA poster child for the "20ppg player who makes your team worse." What GM would be brave/stupid enough to trade for a guy like that? (Knicks, Pelicans, Pistons, Kings - I hope?). Whereas, Monta Ellis (who is Rudy Gay of the backcourt), has rehabbed his 'inefficient chucker' image while playing for a strict, organized coach like Rick Carlisle who keeps his players on a tight lease. That's exactly the type of coach that Gay needs.

          Somebody mentioned that the Cavs have great young assets that could be flipped easily - but the problem is that everybody's going to be making offers at 10 cents on the dollar for Waiters, Thompson, Bennett and Varejao. . IMO, getting the right coach is the first move - regardless of the talent available. If the guy we want/need (e.g. SVG) is not available, then I'd waste no time in rolling the dice on a current assistant, who might be the next Vogel or Brooks. I don't see much risk in that. Ross and JV are going sideways at a time when key playing habits are getting ingrained and they should be showing steady improvement, and Gay/Amir are going backwards and Lowry/DD are pretty much what's expected.

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          • golden wrote: View Post
            After watching the Brad Steven's Celtics dismantle the Knicks this afternoon and seeing how Jeff Hornacek has the Suns playing watchable fundamentally sound basketball, I'm convinced that the first move last summer should have been to replace the coach. Even if Casey helps us get a high draft pick, the downside of tanking (even if successul) is the massive devaluation and the increasing untradeability of every other asset on the roster. Look at the Celtics: all of a sudden Sullinger, Crawford and Humphries are actual trade assets. Whereas Rudy Gay is a league-wide butt of jokes - when he was once considered the next guy in line to be an all-star. We are seeing the worst side of Gay, left un-checked by Casey, and he is now exposed as the NBA poster child for the "20ppg player who makes your team worse." What GM would be brave/stupid enough to trade for a guy like that? (Knicks, Pelicans, Pistons, Kings - I hope?). Whereas, Monta Ellis (who is Rudy Gay of the backcourt), has rehabbed his 'inefficient chucker' image while playing for a strict, organized coach like Rick Carlisle who keeps his players on a tight lease. That's exactly the type of coach that Gay needs.

            Somebody mentioned that the Cavs have great young assets that could be flipped easily - but the problem is that everybody's going to be making offers at 10 cents on the dollar for Waiters, Thompson, Bennett and Varejao. . IMO, getting the right coach is the first move - regardless of the talent available. If the guy we want/need (e.g. SVG) is not available, then I'd waste no time in rolling the dice on a current assistant, who might be the next Vogel or Brooks. I don't see much risk in that. Ross and JV are going sideways at a time when key playing habits are getting ingrained and they should be showing steady improvement, and Gay/Amir are going backwards and Lowry/DD are pretty much what's expected.
            Like Rudy Gay?

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            • Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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              • Out of curiosity what do you guys think tanking does to the mental state of young developing players? I am not pro-tank or anti-tank, I am just curious, as an athlete, what an ultimate losing culture does for a team. You know you are playing for a loser if you are tanking, and you know the goal is no longer to win (at least in the short term.) How would that effect a young player? I personally would want to move to another team as quickly as possible. Or do you think that "tanking" is healthy for the mentality of a sports team and its developing players because they see the potential to win in a few years, and that they can accept the fact that they are losers at the moment but could possibly win in the future? (Valanciunas seems very frustrated with the recent loses, if we go into full tank mode will he be able to handle it?)
                Last edited by ratorsforthewin13; Sun Dec 8, 2013, 07:31 PM.

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                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Like Rudy Gay?
                  That's exactly my point. Casey has driven Gay's market value into the ground. Is there really any risk in changing the coach, asap? Seems like the only way his value can go is up, which it probably will, if Gay lands with a half-decent coach and culture.
                  Last edited by golden; Sun Dec 8, 2013, 07:30 PM.

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                  • ratorsforthewin13 wrote: View Post
                    Out of curiosity what do you guys think tanking does to the mental state of young developing players? I am not pro-tank or anti-tank, I am just curious, as an athlete, what an ultimate losing culture does for a team. You know you are playing for a loser if you are tanking, and you know the goal is no longer to win (at least in the short term.) How would that effect a young player? I personally would want to move to another team as quickly as possible. Or do you think that "tanking" is healthy for the mentality of a sports team and its developing players because they see the potential to win in a few years, and that they can accept the fact that they are losers at the moment but could possibly win in the future? (Valanciunas seems very frustrated with the recent loses, if we go into full tank mode will he be able to handle it?)
                    First off, I don't think losses really damage a young player's development. A guy's personality matters, and if he's got solid character, he will push through. If it lasts for seasons (like 4-5+) it will, or at least could bug anybody, but if it's only a year or two, that's fine.

                    Secondly, I think Jonas is frustrated more by his role and the shitty ball the team is playing than by the losses themselves. If he felt like he's being allowed to contribute all he can, and that the team was playing the right way, even if after gutting some talent and basically expecting more losses, he'd probably feel better and less frustrated.

                    The most recent obvious example is OKC (Not trying to bring up their model). Tanking certainly didn't damage the development or confidence of KD, Jeff Green, or Westbrook.

                    *To expand on OKC. They were also hovering around .500 for roughly half of their breakout season, and despite being led by young players coming off tanking years, really righted the ship that year to win 50 games (with a great 2nd half to the season). Another team led by young players could've easily imploded....Except OKC has guys with the right character in an environment that stresses that type of character and avoids players who don't embody it.

                    Winning culture isn't created by winning, it's created by the approach and character of people in the organization, from ownership/upper management down to the last player on the bench.

                    **I also think even a guy who experiences years of losing isn't really damaged, but may be playing worse by the last year or two of it, and probably needs a change of scenery to bounce back. But in such a situation, the change of scenery can be all a guy needs to get his head back in the game.
                    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:05 PM.

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                    • Debates settled:

                      #tankON

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                      • Onions baby onions
                        salamy and cheese maamaa this debate is over!!

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                        • golden wrote: View Post
                          What GM would be brave/stupid enough to trade for a guy like that? (Knicks, Pelicans, Pistons, Kings - I hope?). .
                          Haha. Gentlemen, we have a winner.

                          Can't wait to see Gay and Boogie Cousins in the same lineup. Kings are one of the few team (see above) where Gay could actually play worse than what you're seeing in Toronto. This could be epic.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post
                            Haha. Gentlemen, we have a winner.

                            Can't wait to see Gay and Boogie Cousins in the same lineup. Kings are one of the few team (see above) where Gay could actually play worse than what you're seeing in Toronto. This could be epic.
                            Ya its a known fact that both Gay and Boogie need strong veteran leadership to contain them(different kinds of containment)...this Kings team is going to implode now

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                            • 'Good' old days.

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                              • OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                                Ya its a known fact that both Gay and Boogie need strong veteran leadership to contain them(different kinds of containment)...this Kings team is going to implode now
                                Looks like the only thing we've ever predicted right after these 2+ year old threads, was that the kings and gay would both suck. Lol classic
                                9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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