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TANK vs ANTI TANK - SUPER THREAD - The Because I Can't Keep Track Edition

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  • The article is meant to prove that the vast majority of top players in the league are drafted in the top 5. As the Raptors are in need of one of the top players in the league...therefor being in the top 5 is in our best interests.

    The article is just a single player basis analysis......not to prove that top 5 picks win championships because championships are dependent on much more than that one player.

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    • octothorp wrote: View Post
      I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
      But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
      I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.
      Exactly. I mean, after reading the thread title I'm expecting to see some pretty powerful pro-tanking argument that nobody's made before. Instead it's more like: (a) good players win awards, (b) good players are drafted high. Um, ok....

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      • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        I think we can beat Phoenix, and maybe LA if Kobe doesn't play.
        Kobe is playing.

        Comment


        • octothorp wrote: View Post
          I don't see why everyone seems to think that the original article is so good. It starts by making the argument that drafting all-stars primarily happens in the top-10 of the draft, and then backs this up with some stats. He then goes on to do the same for various major awards.
          But from that point, there's zero connection in the article between drafting all-stars or award-winning players, and winning championships (or even contending for championships). Toronto has drafted all-stars numerous times in the past, but it's entirely failed to net them anything close to contender status. How many all-stars do you need on your team in order to win championships on average? How did teams acquire their all-stars, and were they all-stars prior to arriving or only after arriving (or did they only become all-stars after winning championships)? How long were teams that drafted their all-stars able to retain them? These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered to address the anti-tank concerns.
          I'm not saying that the conclusions in the article are wrong, just that the article entirely fails to make the argument that it claims to make.
          If you draft higher you are more likely to draft an all star...big jump from an all star to win a championship.

          Comment


          • Good points on the reach of the article.

            Has a team ever won a championship without one?

            All stars don't win championships.
            The teams built around them do.

            Comment


            • 5 game losing stream into this:

              Raptors upcoming schedule: Sun 12/8 @Lakers | Tue 12/10 Spurs | Fri 12/13 76ers | Sat 12/14 @Bulls | Wed 12/18 Bobcats | Fri 12/20 @Mavericks | Sun 12/22 @Thunder | Mon 12/23 @Spurs

              LET THE TANK ROLL!

              Comment


              • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                I think we can beat Phoenix, and maybe LA if Kobe doesn't play.

                I agree they could. I also agree they could beat the Lakers in LA even if Kobe comes back...

                However, the fact remains, they didn't beat the Suns last night. Having homecourt advantage in the first round, even if we win the division is looking less likely than ever. Can we win a playoff series without homecourt advantage? Is their any evidence that the "intangibles" of getting playoff experience lead to future success?

                So many questions...
                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                Comment


                • RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                  http://www.raptorshq.com/2013/12/5/5...-duncan-pacers

                  Really good article. If anyone still isn't on the tank movement you will be after reading that. The only think I didn't like about the article was using Allstar to judge someone's skill but aside from that it's a very compelling article.
                  Spurs model is the preferred blueprint. They MANAGE well.

                  Comment


                  • Bill Simmons: Poopocalypse II

                    Bill Simmons breaks down the Eastern Conference as always lots of funny stuff here are the raptors related bits below click here for the full article

                    From the Wizards section:
                    Random Thought: Did you know Nene isn't one of the top-50 rebounders right now? Or that Lance Stephenson and Evan Turner average more rebounds than him? One of the All-Star Weekend events should be a rebounding "competition" called "Brick House" with Nene, Brook Lopez, Andrea Bargnani and Chris Bosh — two at a time, head-to-head, as they have two minutes to grab as many missed 22-footers from Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan as possible.

                    SportVU Revelation: We're cheating — I'm using a shot chart stat here. But advanced metrics hate any offense built around players unapologetically missing "long 2s," a.k.a. Gay-DeRozan syndrome. Through Tuesday's games, only two NBA teams placed two teammates in the top 10 for "most attempted long 2s" (anything between 15 and 19 feet): Toronto (Gay and DeRozan) and Washington (Beal and Wall). Beal had the lowest percentage of anyone in the top 50 (31.3 percent); Wall was second-lowest (33.3 percent). Jeez, even Gay (38.4 percent) and DeRozan (36.1 percent) are better than that — and they have a shooting syndrome named after them. Shoot 3s or go to the rim, young WPBTs. Trust the math. Avoid GDR syndrome.
                    Raptors Section
                    11. TORONTO RAPTORS, 6-11

                    The Good News: GM Masai Ujiri wants to bottom out while creating cap space and stockpiling cost-effective assets. That explains why he's trying to trade everyone not named "Jonas" right now, and that explains why Dwane Casey will coach all 82 games. It's all for the greater good. And if that's not enough, Andrew Wiggins is Canadian. So there's that.

                    The Bad News: Quick impression of Masai trying to trade Rudy Gay right now …

                    Masai: "Hey, I wanted to see if you had any interest in Rudy."

                    Other GM: "What are you thinking?"

                    Masai: "Well, he's on the books for only $17.9 million this season, then he's a free agent."

                    Other GM: "Wait, I thought Rudy had a player option for $19.3 million next year."

                    Masai: "You're right, he does! I totally forgot! (Holds his hand over the phone and whispers 'They know' to his assistant.) Actually, lemme call you back."

                    Most Interesting Subplot: Is there a better stealth tanking asset than Dwane Casey? He's coached nearly 300 games (career record: 116-171) and still can't grasp the whole "When we're down by a possession in the final 25 seconds, and we don't have the ball, we need to foul the other team" thing. (I wish Dwane Casey coached an NFL team — I'd love to see him trying to figure out timeouts and challenges.) And look, there's an art to tanking — you can't make it seem like you're throwing games. The subtle stuff goes the furthest. Like shelving one of your best players with "tendinitis" with five weeks to play. Like playing two or three subpar players about 10 minutes per game more than you should. Like trying dopey experiments that can't work along the lines of, "Hey, we think Rudy can play a little point guard for us!" Like keeping Casey around for an entire year. As we inch closer and closer toward the Tankapalooza 2014 homestretch, it's going to be the little things that count.

                    Random Thought: Was Gay's uncorrected eyesight really the problem last summer? Let's see …

                    Last season: 41.6 percent FG, 32.3 percent 3FG, 81.4 percent FT
                    This season: 38.8 percent FG, 37.5 percent 3FG, 76.2 percent FT

                    (Back to the drawing board … )

                    SportVU Revelation: One of the many reasons why Roy Hibbert is running away with Defensive Player of the Year: He challenges 10.1 field goals per game at the rim, but opponents score on only 38.2 percent of those shots. By contrast, opponents shoot 58 percent at the rim if it's DeAndre Jordan protecting and 56.9 percent if it's Boogie Cousins. If it's Jonas Valanciunas? We're looking at 52.6 percent. You probably already knew this.

                    Worst-Case Scenario: Raptors fans cheer on Masai as he keeps trading off starters and sabotaging this year's season … right until the moment when he dumps Demar DeRozan on Dallas for Brandan Wright and an expiring contract belonging to … (wait for it) … (wait for it) … Mr. Vince Carter.

                    (And then? Rioting. Lots and lots of rioting.)

                    Prognosis: Somehow, someway, Toronto lands in the bottom four for the East. If it sticks Cleveland or Milwaukee with Gay's contract, even better.
                    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:40 AM.
                    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                    Comment


                    • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                      I agree they could. I also agree they could beat the Lakers in LA even if Kobe comes back...

                      However, the fact remains, they didn't beat the Suns last night. Having homecourt advantage in the first round, even if we win the division is looking less likely than ever. Can we win a playoff series without homecourt advantage? Is their any evidence that the "intangibles" of getting playoff experience lead to future success?

                      So many questions...
                      Raps are 3-6 at home.

                      They struggle to win anywhere

                      Comment


                      • I use to be such a bill Simmons hater. I think I was blinded by hope and optimism. When he talks about relocation, still hate that but everything else is spot on.

                        Comment


                        • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                          I agree they could. I also agree they could beat the Lakers in LA even if Kobe comes back...

                          However, the fact remains, they didn't beat the Suns last night. Having homecourt advantage in the first round, even if we win the division is looking less likely than ever. Can we win a playoff series without homecourt advantage? Is their any evidence that the "intangibles" of getting playoff experience lead to future success?

                          So many questions...
                          Is there any evidence that these so called "magic men" from the draft will get us where we need to go?

                          Comment


                          • psrs1 wrote: View Post
                            Kobe is playing.
                            but he may be limited.

                            Comment


                            • peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                              Is there any evidence that these so called "magic men" from the draft will get us where we need to go?
                              Yes. Years of NBA evidence prove that the best players in the league all came from the draft. Many of them from a top 6 pick.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • I would definitely watch Brick House if that was a real thing.
                                Twitter - @thekid_it

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