View Poll Results: Is the never ending debate settled?

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  • Yes - #tankON

    40 67.80%
  • No - #playoffsAWAIT

    19 32.20%
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Thread: Debate settled......

  1. #181
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    I don't understand this rush to judgement from "pro tankers".....I think this is a trade that may make us better now AND is better for our future. You do get the feeling that there will be more moves to come. However, we still don't know how he plans to build/rebuild this team.

    This move is not necessarily a tank move....Masai Ujiri hates the "T" word like we anti-tankers do. However, he will rebuild this team. How? Is still a mystery to me.....wait and see shall we?

  2. #182
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I definitely agree with the last bit, there really wasn't any need for that (not yet anyway).

    I can't speak for them, but I believe it was directed more towards the more extreme anti-tankers who seemed to want the team to be kept together all season, believing they were a solid playoff team (with Gay).

    As was discovered last week, there was actually some common ground found between the "conservative pro-tankers" and the "liberal anti-tankers" (if we think of tanking on a spectrum), revolving mostly around Gay (and possibly Lowry/Novak). To that middle ground group, I could easily see this trade not determining MU's ultimate direction, since dumping Gay's contract served those on both sides of the tank debate.
    Agreed! I'll admit to wanting to see what this team played like after a summer and training camp together, but anybody other than a misguided Rudy dick-rider could see that Rudy was hurting this team, no matter how you looked at it. Hey, personally I have have more faith in Masai than I even had before. His two major moves (AB, Gay) have been brilliant. What I trust most is that he knows what options are available to him, unlike any of us, and will make wise decisions whatever the ultimate direction he takes this year. BUT, I disagree that he has made up his mind to unload everybody but JV, solely to get BAD and get a high pick, and that he's somehow saying that because he says he'll be making more moves with his eye on the future.

  3. #183
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Agreed! I'll admit to wanting to see what this team played like after a summer and training camp together, but anybody other than a misguided Rudy dick-rider could see that Rudy was hurting this team, no matter how you looked at it. Hey, personally I have have more faith in Masai than I even had before. His two major moves (AB, Gay) have been brilliant. What I trust most is that he knows what options are available to him, unlike any of us, and will make wise decisions whatever the ultimate direction he takes this year. BUT, I disagree that he has made up his mind to unload everybody but JV, solely to get BAD and get a high pick, and that he's somehow saying that because he says he'll be making more moves with his eye on the future.
    I never expected MU to do the bolded part, to simply unload everybody. I think a 'tank' could be accomplished with a few strategic moves (ie: Lowry), allowing the team to retain several other good players/assets (ie: DeRozan being the most polarizing between the pro/anti tanking crowd).

    As far as whether this trade was indicative of an oncoming tank, I guess that depends on how each person perceived MU's messages during the press conference, more than the deal itself.

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  5. #184
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I never expected MU to do the bolded part, to simply unload everybody. I think a 'tank' could be accomplished with a few strategic moves (ie: Lowry), allowing the team to retain several other good players/assets (ie: DeRozan being the most polarizing between the pro/anti tanking crowd).

    As far as whether this trade was indicative of an oncoming tank, I guess that depends on how each person perceived MU's messages during the press conference, more than the deal itself.
    Well it seems like this particular debate was settled.......... !

  6. #185
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Default Debate settled......

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I don't understand this rush to judgement from "pro tankers".....I think this is a trade that may make us better now AND is better for our future. You do get the feeling that there will be more moves to come. However, we still don't know how he plans to build/rebuild this team.

    This move is not necessarily a tank move....Masai Ujiri hates the "T" word like we anti-tankers do. However, he will rebuild this team. How? Is still a mystery to me.....wait and see shall we?
    Special1 looks like it's be and you against RR.

    I agree with what you said and I'd like to add. What do we know about Ujiri when it comes to building a team? We know that he like chemistry between players and he likes depth on a roster. With this recent trade has just began to do that? Traded a talented player but one who did not fit the roster. Brought back the runner up to the MIP award last year. A stretch 4 who in 71 games games with Rockets/Kings averaged 10.4 Pts 4.7 Rebs 1.1 Ast shooting .512, .384 and .762 in 25.0 minutes per game. Like I said this a huge gamble if your trying to lose. Basically turning one of your biggest weakness into a strength(bench).


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  7. #186
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    The Raps are on a pace to win 27 games this season. Losing Lowry alone would lower that expectation. Out of 18 games played, 8 have been western conference, so their sched has been a little tougher than it would otherwise have been. A finish of 27 wins last year would have them tied for 5th. An argument could be made that even trying their best to win, they have been doing a great job of tanking. Moving Lowry and Amir for broken down vets and/or picks in 2015 should put them on the tank train. We will see what happens by Dec. 15th when more should become clear.

    I would argue that we will know sooner rather than later. If MU wants the Raps to lose games, he will want them to get an early start at it, and at the same time force Casey to give lots of burn to the players that he wants to see develop.

  8. #187
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think a 'tank' could be accomplished with a few strategic moves (ie: Lowry), allowing the team to retain several other good players/assets (ie: DeRozan being the most polarizing between the pro/anti tanking crowd).
    I'm not going to argue with you, because I agree with you. EXCEPT for your usage of the word "tank"

    Tanking is a definitive extreme. It's intentionally shitting the bed in the hopes that the wife will change the sheets for you, and put on those awesome 600 count Egyptian cotton sheets you love

    shitting the bed = putting a horrible team on the floor that is built to lose
    the wife = the lottery
    the awesome 600 count sheets = high draft pick

    see the 07-08 Miami Heat for the prototypical tanking team. It's the reason I despise their franchise as much as I do.

    what you're describing is not making winning now a priority for the sake of the future of the team. tanking is making losing a priority for the quickest route to improvement. something the raptors are not doing.

    An actual tank, would be keeping Gay, letting him hoist up his 30 shots a game every night.. putting Demar on the injury list for a hang nail.. picking up a D-League bench player to start for us at SG..

    but I'll reiterate... I actually agree with the essence of what you're saying... just not your choice of words.

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  10. #188
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I have a feeling that when the Raptors end the season with the 4th worst record, the anti-tankers will point to every Ujiri transaction as "team-improving" ones that just didn't work out....and sleep easy thinking that Ujiri's plan was the same as their own....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  12. #189
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    I'm not going to argue with you, because I agree with you. EXCEPT for your usage of the word "tank"

    Tanking is a definitive extreme. It's intentionally shitting the bed in the hopes that the wife will change the sheets for you, and put on those awesome 600 count Egyptian cotton sheets you love

    shitting the bed = putting a horrible team on the floor that is built to lose
    the wife = the lottery
    the awesome 600 count sheets = high draft pick

    see the 07-08 Miami Heat for the prototypical tanking team. It's the reason I despise their franchise as much as I do.

    what you're describing is not making winning now a priority for the sake of the future of the team. tanking is making losing a priority for the quickest route to improvement. something the raptors are not doing.

    An actual tank, would be keeping Gay, letting him hoist up his 30 shots a game every night.. putting Demar on the injury list for a hang nail.. picking up a D-League bench player to start for us at SG..

    but I'll reiterate... I actually agree with the essence of what you're saying... just not your choice of words.
    Great points Heinz. And I think this is slightly on point with what p00ka was taking exception too.

    I love it when Heinz chimes in with legit Raptors related debate material.
    Its like dirty music to my ears.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Dec 10th, 2013 at 04:13 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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  14. #190
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    An actual tank, would be keeping Gay, letting him hoist up his 30 shots a game every night..
    Except that would have cost the Raptors $19.5 million next year. So they traded him for players with less ability, and who are also easier to move and/or can be allowed to leave or bought out for next season.

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  16. #191
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    CalgaryRapsFan (I'm one of those too, ha), thanks for the reasoned and civilized discussion, while actually responding to my points in my original post of this particular discussion.

    If we're going to speculate what this trade signals, about the only thing I absolutely see coming is Lowry being moved, primarily due to his expiring contract. As far as other valuable assets (DD, JV, Ross, Amir in my mind), unless some "can't refuse" offer comes along, I see him hanging on to all of them, even if for no other the reason, to use as trade chips, after the draft lottery, to try and target a high pick.

  17. #192
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    As far as other valuable assets (DD, JV, Ross, Amir in my mind), unless some "can't refuse" offer comes along, I see him hanging on to all of them, even if for no other the reason, to use as trade chips, after the draft lottery, to try and target a high pick.
    Indeed possible. But what if there are no takers post lottery? Seems like allowing our own pick to rise (by losing a lot of games this year) gives Ujiri much more control regarding the draft.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #193
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I have a feeling that when the Raptors end the season with the 4th worst record, the anti-tankers will point to every Ujiri transaction as "team-improving" ones that just didn't work out....and sleep easy thinking that Ujiri's plan was the same as their own....
    You mean the way tankers are trying to manipulate this trade to say the tank is in full swing?

  19. #194
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    I'm not going to argue with you, because I agree with you. EXCEPT for your usage of the word "tank"

    Tanking is a definitive extreme. It's intentionally shitting the bed in the hopes that the wife will change the sheets for you, and put on those awesome 600 count Egyptian cotton sheets you love

    shitting the bed = putting a horrible team on the floor that is built to lose
    the wife = the lottery
    the awesome 600 count sheets = high draft pick

    see the 07-08 Miami Heat for the prototypical tanking team. It's the reason I despise their franchise as much as I do.

    what you're describing is not making winning now a priority for the sake of the future of the team. tanking is making losing a priority for the quickest route to improvement. something the raptors are not doing.

    An actual tank, would be keeping Gay, letting him hoist up his 30 shots a game every night.. putting Demar on the injury list for a hang nail.. picking up a D-League bench player to start for us at SG..

    but I'll reiterate... I actually agree with the essence of what you're saying... just not your choice of words.
    haha hence the quotes around the word!

    What most pro-tankers are arguing, is that their 'tank' strategy would involve either having mistresses lined-up to change the sheets if the wife says no, or having several comfy chairs and couches available to sleep on until the bed sheets get changed.... I think... lol

    I would agree that what myself and many pro-tankers are hoping for is not actually a tank, in the strictest sense of the term. We want to sacrifice the current season to enable MU to build a far better team for the future. The 2014 draft is just one part of that process and improving the positioning of the Raps' own 1st round pick is a residual benefit of unloading bad players/contracts to acquire prospects/picks/cap space, not the heart of the strategy itself. The semantics around the term "tank"/"tanking" has been the cause of a months-long feud around these here parts!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Dec 10th, 2013 at 04:28 PM.

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  21. #195
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    You mean the way tankers are trying to manipulate this trade to say the tank is in full swing?
    I suppose we'll never really know what Ujiri's true intentions are, thanks to his vague answers to every question.

    But if we end up with a top-6 pick, I'll call it a successful season. I can learn to refrain from calling it a "tank" job, if it pleases some
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  22. #196
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    CalgaryRapsFan (I'm one of those too, ha), thanks for the reasoned and civilized discussion, while actually responding to my points in my original post of this particular discussion.

    If we're going to speculate what this trade signals, about the only thing I absolutely see coming is Lowry being moved, primarily due to his expiring contract. As far as other valuable assets (DD, JV, Ross, Amir in my mind), unless some "can't refuse" offer comes along, I see him hanging on to all of them, even if for no other the reason, to use as trade chips, after the draft lottery, to try and target a high pick.
    1st bold - I suppose it can be done

    2nd bold - I said pretty much the same thing in another thread today, when a poster (j-claw I think) asked which players are likely to be traded next (I split roster into 4 groups, in terms of likelihood of them being traded)

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Indeed possible. But what if there are no takers post lottery? Seems like allowing our own pick to rise (by losing a lot of games this year) gives Ujiri much more control regarding the draft.
    Not much less "control" than putting what you think is a losing team on the floor, then depending on that team of players "co-operating", along with the other 29 teams, then the lottery. No question that if such speculation on my part has many risks of not succeeding in the desired goal, but everything I see in MU tells me he isn't a guy to rush into some blind dismantling of the team to the point of guaranteeing a top 5 pick.

  24. #198
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    1st bold - I suppose it can be done

    2nd bold - I said pretty much the same thing in another thread today, when a poster (j-claw I think) asked which players are likely to be traded next (I split roster into 4 groups, in terms of likelihood of them being traded)
    I saw that, and I'm totally in line with it. Hmmmm, slowly but surely, the gap between some tankers and some anti-tankers is narrowing. Heinz is spot on. The term, and the definition of what it was coined to describe, possibly causes more issues than any specific differences in what we all want to see in the long run.

  25. #199
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The semantics around the term "tank"/"tanking" has been the cause of a months-long feud around these here parts!
    for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

    I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

    nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

    I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol

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  27. #200
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I would also like to add that Vasquez has similar PER to Gay 14.52 in 10 less minutes.


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