View Poll Results: Is the never ending debate settled?

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  • Yes - #tankON

    40 67.80%
  • No - #playoffsAWAIT

    19 32.20%
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Thread: Debate settled......

  1. #201
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

    I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

    nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

    I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol
    I agree with a lot of your points.

    To further cloud the discussion I would point out those who wish to build with what is on the roster tend to think this team is fairly good as is. Those who are happy as losses pile up tend to realize the team is not very good.

    I will point out one thing about this trade which adds to the argument p00ka typically puts forth and takes away one of the key arguments I had used about trying to win with the team as is: financial flexibility. The Raptors actually have it now.

    To be the ever pessimist tank driver I am though I will also highlight trading for a top talent is likely to be difficult with Ujiri's proclamations of building through the draft and free agency is not a realistic option at this time just because the Raptors smell of losing and, in my opinion, are a couple of seasons ways away from shedding it at best.
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  2. #202
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

    I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

    nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

    I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol
    haha fair enough

    With regards to the bold, that is part of the long-term team-building strategy supported by pro-tankers, no doubt.

    The rift between the two sides is that anti-tankers seem to view the bold as the strategy, while pro-tankers view the upcoming draft as a small part of a much larger strategy (and the additional Ping-Pong balls are simply a residual benefit of deciding to follow that strategy now, before the season ends or even just before the trade deadline when the Raptors inevitably become sellers anyway).

    Semantics are around whether tanking is the strategy, or just a residual benefit of a desired rebuilding/building/retooling strategy.

    Those semantics leads to arguments and an overwhelming need for alcohol! lol
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Dec 10th, 2013 at 05:13 PM.

  3. #203
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

    I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

    nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

    I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol
    Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.

    Other than that, thanks for the words of wisdom in avoiding the constant tank bombardment. This old dog will try and learn new tricks to follow suit. Your sense of humour is sure sorely missed around here though. Despite my early battles with Nilanka, I sure appreciate his attempts to bring levity to discussions, but it doesn't quite fill the void. Cheers

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  5. #204
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

    Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

    If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.

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  7. #205
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

    Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

    If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.
    Rebuilding with the residual benefit of an in-season, pre-trade-deadline tank.

    Pre-emptive trade-deadline sellers. This one avoids the ethical/emotional/karmic backlash associated with "tanking".

  8. #206
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    The win over the Lakers set in motion an antitank sentiment. A win Against SA will cement that. Then, they can send in hald dead clones to finish out the season with 9 wins

  9. #207
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

    Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

    If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.
    That is a good point too.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #208
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.

    Other than that, thanks for the words of wisdom in avoiding the constant tank bombardment. This old dog will try and learn new tricks to follow suit. Your sense of humour is sure sorely missed around here though. Despite my early battles with Nilanka, I sure appreciate his attempts to bring levity to discussions, but it doesn't quite fill the void. Cheers
    You're right we're chasing ping pong balls and trying to build from there. Well what do they represent? In this draft they represent an opportunity that comes once a decade to draft a player that can change the course of your franchise. Seeing how our course has been pretty awful and the amount of players in this draft (represented by those Ping pong balls) that could change our franchise exist, well yes I am willing to chase ping pong balls. I want lots of ping pong balls too as many as we can possibly get. Any ping pong balls really so long as there's lots of them.

  11. #209
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Rebuilding with the residual benefit of an in-season, pre-trade-deadline tank.

    Pre-emptive trade-deadline sellers. This one avoids the ethical/emotional/karmic backlash associated with "tanking".
    Those work...however I do not want to sound like the wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man, when I could just say tank..


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  13. #210
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.
    This goes for me as well. I'm too lazy to search for Heinz post, so I'll just go with pooka's.
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  14. #211
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I feel like we really reached a mile-stone you guys.. a real breakthrough today.
    This new-found communication is really great to see between the two sides ... I guess this is what it feels like when Israel and Palestine sit down for talks...
    In Masai we Trust.

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  16. #212
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I bench would of really helped in this game


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  17. #213
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    We said Masai Ujiri wasn’t done, not by a long shot (sources have indicated he’s determined to totally reshape the roster in order to make everyone forget about the previous, losing era), but the speed of a Kyle Lowry trade rumour picking up considerable speed was a surprise.

    https://twitter.com/wolstatsun/statu...84980505919488

    It would appear debate over with only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Dec 13th, 2013 at 03:22 PM. Reason: quote added

  18. #214
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I agree with your last points about what the trade was. I don't really see a tank move as yet. What I see by this trade are:
    - Depth at PG. The play of the back up guards was hurting the team when Lowry was out and at the rate he was going he would be injured sooner than later
    - Freeing up minutes and shots for JV and Ross
    - No drop off at SF considering how poorly Gay was playing
    - Additional rebounders and interior D
    - Flexibility

    Another thing I found interesting is that by getting someone like Salmons, whom can handle the rock and Patterson that can shoot, it takes a lot of the pressure off DeMar. Almost like they were shaping the roster around DeMar. Will need time to tell if that theory has any validity to it.
    Jesus Christ really? You think opposing teams are gonna freak out when salmons (old and declining) and Patterson (can't shoot anymore and lost his starting position almost right away in Sacramento) are on the floor, allowing demar to be freed up more? Where are these weird fantasies coming from?


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  19. #215
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Jesus Christ really? You think opposing teams are gonna freak out when salmons (old and declining) and Patterson (can't shoot anymore and lost his starting position almost right away in Sacramento) are on the floor, allowing demar to be freed up more? Where are these weird fantasies coming from?


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    Salmons is shooting .381 from 3 on 2.3 shots. Referring to Patterson you don't forget how to shoot. This team would of been better but it's looking more and more obvious Masai doesn't want to compete this year.


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  20. #216
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Salmons is shooting .381 from 3 on 2.3 shots. Referring to Patterson you don't forget how to shoot. This team would of been better but it's looking more and more obvious Masai doesn't want to compete this year.


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    .381 from 3 is respectable. But I like how you conveniently ignore every other dropping stat. How's his fg% doing? Career low? Great!

    What do you mean you dont forget how to shoot? Patterson is shooting 3s as bad as Amir is this year. His fg% is also at a career low.

    I don't think demar is breathing sighs of relief here.

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  21. #217
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    .381 from 3 is respectable. But I like how you conveniently ignore every other dropping stat. How's his fg% doing? Career low? Great!

    What do you mean you dont forget how to shoot? Patterson is shooting 3s as bad as Amir is this year. His fg% is also at a career low.

    I don't think demar is breathing sighs of relief here.

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    18 games is a small sample size. Patterson is 24 to say his declining is ridiculous. The percentages will work themselves out.


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  22. #218
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    We said Masai Ujiri wasn’t done, not by a long shot (sources have indicated he’s determined to totally reshape the roster in order to make everyone forget about the previous, losing era), but the speed of a Kyle Lowry trade rumour picking up considerable speed was a surprise.

    https://twitter.com/wolstatsun/statu...84980505919488


    It would appear debate over with only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv
    Don't know who the "We" is, but nobody said MU wouldn't make changes. As far as the debate being over, what debate? That a tank is or is not the best route? That the tank is in full swing or not? The Gay deal is far from anything any scenario presented as "tanking", and until an actual deal goes down, you know not just rumours, and we actually know what's coming back, there's zero reason to be proud of being "right". I hope the ladies don't also say you blow your load prematurely.

    AND, moving Gay and Lowry is hardly stripping the team down to bare bones to purposely be bad for a draft pick. "Only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv." Is that all? lol
    Last edited by p00ka; Fri Dec 13th, 2013 at 11:11 AM.

  23. #219
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Don't know who the "We" is, but nobody said MU wouldn't make changes. As far as the debate being over, what debate? That a tank is or is not the best route? That the tank is in full swing or not? The Gay deal is far from anything any scenario presented as "tanking", and until an actual deal goes down, you know not just rumours, and we actually know what's coming back, there's zero reason to be proud of being "right". I hope the ladies don't also say you blow your load prematurely.

    AND, moving Gay and Lowry is hardly stripping the team down to bare bones to purposely be bad for a draft pick. "Only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv." Is that all? lol
    OK, but I think you should consider refraining from ever complaining again about people stirring the pot if this is the kind of post we can expect from you on a regular basis. No one asked you to post this retort, and no one called you out in the post you are replying to.

    You've got some kind of inferiority complex going on there, pooka. I had some sympathy -- or at least empathy -- for you while you were pounding the "we don't need to tank, there are other ways to improve" drum, but now you're just wading in every time Matt posts something to bitch about what a mean, nasty internet troll he is. It's at least as ridiculous as the 'I told you so' mentality you pretend to be railing against.

    I can't remember the last post I've seen from you that was about the Raptors; they're all about how some other poster has offended your sensibilities, or how they don't know how to present an argument properly, or about how they, get this -- continue to post the same stuff time after time, ad nauseum. Pot: "Hey, kettle -- you're black!"
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  25. #220
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    OK, but I think you should consider refraining from ever complaining again about people stirring the pot if this is the kind of post we can expect from you on a regular basis. No one asked you to post this retort, and no one called you out in the post you are replying to.

    You've got some kind of inferiority complex going on there, pooka. I had some sympathy -- or at least empathy -- for you while you were pounding the "we don't need to tank, there are other ways to improve" drum, but now you're just wading in every time Matt posts something to bitch about what a mean, nasty internet troll he is. It's at least as ridiculous as the 'I told you so' mentality you pretend to be railing against.

    I can't remember the last post I've seen from you that was about the Raptors; they're all about how some other poster has offended your sensibilities, or how they don't know how to present an argument properly, or about how they, get this -- continue to post the same stuff time after time, ad nauseum. Pot: "Hey, kettle -- you're black!"
    Sadly only way I see anything from p00kster is if someone quotes him... Thanks a lot jimmie!

    I agree with your post. Just to clarify, the "we" in the post to which p00kster replied was by Ryan Wolstat. Been on my phone for a couple of days and a pain in the ass to quote stuff.

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