View Poll Results: Is the never ending debate settled?

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  • Yes - #tankON

    40 67.80%
  • No - #playoffsAWAIT

    19 32.20%
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Thread: Debate settled......

  1. #221
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    OK, but I think you should consider refraining from ever complaining again about people stirring the pot if this is the kind of post we can expect from you on a regular basis. No one asked you to post this retort, and no one called you out in the post you are replying to.

    You've got some kind of inferiority complex going on there, pooka. I had some sympathy -- or at least empathy -- for you while you were pounding the "we don't need to tank, there are other ways to improve" drum, but now you're just wading in every time Matt posts something to bitch about what a mean, nasty internet troll he is. It's at least as ridiculous as the 'I told you so' mentality you pretend to be railing against.

    I can't remember the last post I've seen from you that was about the Raptors; they're all about how some other poster has offended your sensibilities, or how they don't know how to present an argument properly, or about how they, get this -- continue to post the same stuff time after time, ad nauseum. Pot: "Hey, kettle -- you're black!"
    This is pooka's M.O.
    Step 1: Hijack thread with flamethrower. Insult everyone you disagree with.
    Step 2: If anyone responds in kind, increase chest thumping and "You want a piece of me? You can't handle this!" Sound and fury.
    Step 3: Tire of the attacks and start proclaiming you're the only one here for a "real discussion."
    Step 4: Pick one person who hasn't insulted you and say "See - a real discussion! That's what I'm here for! I'm not talking to the rest of you anymore." Sniffle sniffle.
    Step 5: Disappear for a day or two, then return to forums and repeat steps 1 through 5.

    Engaging him is an exercise in futility and ultimately, not very interesting.

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  3. #222
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It would appear debate over with only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv
    Just to clarify: above comment based on Wolstat's sources that MU is looking to reshape the roster in order to make everyone forget about the previous losing era. I hate to tell you guys but Lowry, DeRozan, Amir, JV, Fields, and Ross are the only Raptors remaining with Bargnani, Gay, Acy, and Gray already traded.

    Lowry is going to be gone sooner or later for sure.
    DeRozan has been here 5 years.
    Amir has been here for 5 years.
    Fields has an awful contract and just 1 year left.
    JV and Ross are here for just 1 year and on rookie deals.

    So based on the above:
    Lowry/DD/Amir appear to be bets to be traded if the bold is true.
    Fields is not going anywhere due to contract.
    JV and Ross might not be tainted enough.

    Everyone else on the roster has been brought in by Masai.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #223
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    Management hasn't done anything drastic yet. Rudy needed to go and Lowry due to contract needs to go. If (or when) they trade amir/ DD etc is when i will "worry" about DD being traded. To this point they've done nothing more than do what needed to be done. Amir and DD don't need to be traded at this point i think its something that will be re assessed after the Lowry trade.

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  6. #224
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    For the record i think some of them will be traded for sure. But i would bet that one of DD/Amir stay and more than likely JV unless top 6 pick coming back in return.

  7. #225
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    Management hasn't done anything drastic yet. Rudy needed to go and Lowry due to contract needs to go. If (or when) they trade amir/ DD etc is when i will "worry" about DD being traded. To this point they've done nothing more than do what needed to be done. Amir and DD don't need to be traded at this point i think its something that will be re assessed after the Lowry trade.
    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    For the record i think some of them will be traded for sure. But i would bet that one of DD/Amir stay and more than likely JV unless top 6 pick coming back in return.
    I agree. Aside from Gay & Lowry, I had Novak & Hansborough in my top-4 for 'must trade' or 'will trade'.

    I could really see DeRozan and/or Johnson being kept until the draft, so that if they are traded, they're being dealt for known quantities.

    Of course, if an offer come along that's too good to pass up, then all bets are obviously off.

  8. #226
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    Management hasn't done anything drastic yet. Rudy needed to go and Lowry due to contract needs to go. If (or when) they trade amir/ DD etc is when i will "worry" about DD being traded. To this point they've done nothing more than do what needed to be done. Amir and DD don't need to be traded at this point i think its something that will be re assessed after the Lowry trade.
    Fair enough but if Wolstat's sources are correct no two players represent the losing since 2009-10 more than Amir and DeMar. They have been there every step of the way.

    **There is not malicious intent or taunting or trolling on my part. My comments are based on taking Wolstat's 'sources' at face value**
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #227
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I saw Doug Smith's tweet on HoopsWorld.com twitter feed. I couldn't resist clicking as it said ".... next Raptors move."




    Bold 1: So the Raptors are going to make more trades where they send out their better players for better players? Because that is the only way I see the team taking steps forward rather than backwards.

    Bold 2: Ahhhh, so this talk about tearing down a roster taking years was and is bogus? Exactly. Nice to see him acknowledging reality of situation while still proclaiming the moves have nothing to do with getting a top 5 draft pick but in fact are about getting better now.

    I really hope for his sake he has started outsourcing his blog to a 12 year old.
    Just ignore Doug Smith. We all know his m.o. I listen to Chisholm --he has way more credibility.

  10. #228
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Interesting thread guys

  11. #229
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    LOL, I guess you boys didn't appreciate my sense of humour,,,,,, or just hate the reality that there is zero evidence, as yet, that anything that y'all have described as a tank is underway, never mind that it's "settled". To make sure it's clear, this is Matt52's post that I responded to:

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It would appear debate over with only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv
    My response was:

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Don't know who the "We" is, but nobody said MU wouldn't make changes. As far as the debate being over, what debate? That a tank is or is not the best route? That the tank is in full swing or not? The Gay deal is far from anything any scenario presented as "tanking", and until an actual deal goes down, you know not just rumours, and we actually know what's coming back, there's zero reason to be proud of being "right". I hope the ladies don't also say you blow your load prematurely.

    AND, moving Gay and Lowry is hardly stripping the team down to bare bones to purposely be bad for a draft pick. "Only thing left is trading DeRozan Amir and possibly jv." Is that all? lol
    Bold: Once again, y'all getting your nuts all twisted over a slightly twisted sense of humour? Really? It was a fucking analogy about jumping the gun, as in just a tad premature, kids. Are you really that sensitive to get all pissy over that? Sheeeesh, but comical in itself. What else about that post is getting y'all worked up? The truth about the "debate" NOT being "over"? Get over it.

    So, Jimmie, good pal:

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    OK, but I think you should consider refraining from ever complaining again about people stirring the pot if this is the kind of post we can expect from you on a regular basis. No one asked you to post this retort, and no one called you out in the post you are replying to.

    You've got some kind of inferiority complex going on there, pooka. I had some sympathy -- or at least empathy -- for you while you were pounding the "we don't need to tank, there are other ways to improve" drum, but now you're just wading in every time Matt posts something to bitch about what a mean, nasty internet troll he is. It's at least as ridiculous as the 'I told you so' mentality you pretend to be railing against.

    I can't remember the last post I've seen from you that was about the Raptors; they're all about how some other poster has offended your sensibilities, or how they don't know how to present an argument properly, or about how they, get this -- continue to post the same stuff time after time, ad nauseum. Pot: "Hey, kettle -- you're black!"
    Bold 1: Well, I don't complain about people stirring the pot. In fact I willingly participate in doing so myself. There's no fun or growth in just hanging with people who agree with everything you say,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, imo (do those little qualifiers actually sooth the sensibilities as much as it seems?). Doubt it will work here, but I do try and play along with that local standard when I remember.

    Bold 2: "kind of post"???? Again, what about that post has you all twisted out of shape? The "blowing your load prematurely" analogy tweaked your sensibilities? You boys need to toughen up a bit if you can't handle that, sheeeesh. I gotta say it: did it touch a personal sensitive spot, so you don't find it funny? Sorry if it did, but it was meant as humour, lad!

    Bold 3: Well, that's quite a conclusion, oh wise psychologist. Since you're getting so personal and judgmental, do tell how you've arrived at it. I'm always open to learn from such expertise.

    Bold 4: Now your just inventing hyperbole. 1. I don't come close to responding to even 5% of what Matt posts. Hell, if I stalked him to respond to everything, I'd have to be here, and active, at least 8 hours every day. That's just bullshit hyperbole. 2. Never referred to him, or I don't think anybody, as a troll, so where is this inventive imagination coming from? As I did in the post you're all twisted about, I like to argue about what people actually say, and respond to what's actually in the post I'm responding to. Try it.

    Bold 5: Well, it doesn't take much remembering. Just need to remember the post you responded to. I responded directly to Matt's post about the RAPTORS' tank debate being over, though I'm sorry if you missed me being more elaborate about my contending reasoning. I'm not usually into repeating stuff over and over and over, like some here, and had already detailed my reasoning surrounding the Gay trade, in another post. Perhaps you skipped over that because I was talking about the Raptors? Seems a lot of others did too, because I didn't get any reasonable rebuttal to it. Not my fault nobody has an answer to what doesn't fit the tanking narrative.

    The last little bit: You're just inventing shit again, but thanks for the fine example of how to discuss the Raptors, instead of getting personal.

    ----------------

    Now, my good buddy S.R.:

    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This is pooka's M.O.
    Step 1: Hijack thread with flamethrower. Insult everyone you disagree with.
    Step 2: If anyone responds in kind, increase chest thumping and "You want a piece of me? You can't handle this!" Sound and fury.
    Step 3: Tire of the attacks and start proclaiming you're the only one here for a "real discussion."
    Step 4: Pick one person who hasn't insulted you and say "See - a real discussion! That's what I'm here for! I'm not talking to the rest of you anymore." Sniffle sniffle.
    Step 5: Disappear for a day or two, then return to forums and repeat steps 1 through 5.

    Engaging him is an exercise in futility and ultimately, not very interesting.
    LOL, though I enjoy humour, I think you actually meant to be serious here. You might be able to cherry pick the odd statement I've said, twist them a little, and proclaim your vision of my M.O. accurate, but I really don't give a shit if you don't like me or how I post here. As twisted as the rest of your "p00ka's MO" is, nothing shows how inaccurate it is than your #4: never said anything close to "not talking to the rest of you anymore", never mind repeating the process, but this "Sniffle sniffle" jab is funny as hell. I could name a few here that whine and run, but the last thing I am is one who runs away from a good battle, whining and sniffling. You got me confused with someone else, lad.

    Now, how about responding to my points about the Gay trade not being any proof of a tank underway, and since we haven't a clue what's coming back for Lowry, there's nothing to proclaim there either. You know, the topic. Not just some cowardly pot shots with your gang in tow.

  12. #230
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Whaaaaaat isssssss thisssssss ??????????

  13. #231
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    If the reports of the returns MU is looking for in exchange for Lowry Are true then it surely must be impossible to argue that were not in tank mode....

  14. #232
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Lowry will be gone soon
    DD and amir will also be gone for the right price

  15. #233
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    Yes I'm really not sure which direction they will go with Amir of DD i think they really are assessing every step of the way. It will all depend what we get for lowry and then onto the next possible deal and then weigh the options.

  16. #234
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Fair enough but if Wolstat's sources are correct no two players represent the losing since 2009-10 more than Amir and DeMar. They have been there every step of the way.

    **There is not malicious intent or taunting or trolling on my part. My comments are based on taking Wolstat's 'sources' at face value**
    Everything there is true, but i think we can both agree it was not Demar's and Amirs fault we were losing. A lot of the time like now they were the guys who we valued unlike everyone else on the team.

  17. #235
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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  18. #236
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default T'would appear the debate is not settled.....

    It would appear the debate is not settled..... or is it? lol

    From.....




    .....to......





    .....and now.....





    Yet questions and doubt remain (Source is Howard Beck at Bleacher Report - one of many people they have brought in to up their credibility):

    NEW YORK – The best team in the NBA’s Atlantic Division has a losing record and a winning stride, a coach who is hell-bent on making the playoffs and a general manager determined to blow it all up.

    The Toronto Raptors are simultaneously winning and losing, contending and tanking, conflicted by the present, day-dreaming about their future. They are a bundle of contradictions, the dizziest team in the NBA, presiding over the league’s most feeble division.

    ......

    The Raptors, who have won six of their last nine games (Matt52: now seven of ten), are still trying to sort out their goals.

    They opened the season as a dark horse playoff contender, with just enough talent to be intriguing. Then they lost 12 of their first 18 games, and the intrigue suddenly shifted to the front office.

    ......

    But the Gay deal, according to front-office sources, also signaled a shift in philosophy. The Raptors had been on the fence about tanking—i.e., losing for the sake of getting a higher pick in the 2014 draft—but the poor start pushed them over the edge.

    Every player on the Raptors’ roster—including leading scorer guard DeMar DeRozan and possibly even Jonas Valanciunas, the highly promising young center—could be available in a trade, according to those same front-office sources.

    “We don’t know what they’re going to do,” DeRozan said, before asking a reporter, “You know something I don’t know?”

    Point guard Kyle Lowry was nearly dealt to New York two weeks ago. But Knicks owner James L. Dolan, in a rare show of restraint, vetoed the trade rather than send Toronto another first-round draft pick. (The Knicks previously surrendered a first-rounder in the Bargnani deal – a decision that flew in the face of rational thought, since Toronto was desperate to unload Bargnani.)

    .......

    This is not entirely true, of course. Team executives dictate a franchise’s agenda, but players and coaches dictate wins and losses, and most of them prefer the joy of the occasional victory.

    In Casey’s case, that preference borders on defiance, if not insubordination.

    “I’m not even going to talk about tanking,” Casey said, cutting off a reporter’s question about the draft. “I’m not going to answer that question. The goal is to win, period.”

    Nor did Casey care to ponder where his players might land in the next month or two.

    “I tell our staff all the time: We got to coach these guys like they're going to be here for five years,” he said. “Whatever happens from a front office standpoint, we have to do our job, be professional and work with the players and coach and teach.”

    .......

    If trading Gay was intended as a first step toward tanking, it has backfired spectacularly.

    The Raptors have gone 6-3 (Matt52: now 7-3) without Gay, with five wins on the road, including victories over Chicago, Dallas and Oklahoma City. They get another shot at the lifeless Knicks on Saturday, in Toronto.

    Over the last nine games, the Raptors have posted an offensive rating of 104.5 (a 3-point improvement) and a defensive rating of 100.5 (a 1.2-point improvement). Gay’s departure most certainly helped.

    ......

    Even Raptors fans are divided, some enjoying the team’s sudden resurgence and others bemoaning it, preferring short-term pain for the chance to get an elite talent, perhaps the Canadian-born Andrew Wiggins, next June.

    Another conundrum: Winning enhances every player’s value for an eventual trade, but the more the Raptors win, the worse it looks to break up the roster, the more transparent the agenda becomes.

    .......

    Adjusting to the idea of a division winner with a losing record is something else entirely.

    “I mean, you’re just happy to be on top, man,” DeRozan said.

    The dizziest, most conflicted team in the NBA can at least take solace in that.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...rudy-gay-trade

    In the end, Wolstat probably should have just stuck with these two tweets as they are the most likely outcome:









    Time to just sit back and see what happens..... and no, the debate is not settled.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #237
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    Really, it all boils down to this...

    Losing now might improve your own draft position next spring for that one potential franchise player, but losing now screws up your trade value immediately for all current players.

    This team wasn't really setup to tank. That should have happened in the off-season, if that was truly the goal.

  20. #238
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    Pretty crazy to think how much Lowry and Amir have raised their value since the Rudy trade...

    Just saying.

  21. #239
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Really, it all boils down to this...

    Losing now might improve your own draft position next spring for that one potential franchise player, but losing now screws up your trade value immediately for all current players.

    This team wasn't really setup to tank. That should have happened in the off-season, if that was truly the goal.
    I disagree.... surprise!

    With all those teams tanking against each other, they all play one another - especially the eastern conference teams - somebody has to win each game. What will likely happen is a bunch of teams are going to be separated by 3-4 wins.

    At the start of the year it was, "Raps will never be worse than Phoenix or Boston." Guess what? Those teams aren't bad. Then you have teams like Charlotte, Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who have ownership/management making it clear they are looking to win this year. Then you have teams like Brooklyn and New York who are dysfunctional and injured but have talent. They also have no draft picks and are likely to put together a string of wins, at the very least, at some point.

    Assuming the Raptors trade Lowry (or the unimaginable which I'll leave you to imagine), the only teams in the league that are really unmatchable in the tank are Philly and Milwaukee. After that I think it is debatable on Sacramento, Utah, and Orlando. But no question each win is making it more difficult, if that is the end goal.


    I think there is still plenty of time to tank. Yet again, tanking doesn't require having the worst record. Finishing 4th worst gives a 99% chance at a top 6 pick.

    Raps have 54 games left - 36 are against the east. Of those 36:

    5 are against Indiana and Miami.
    20 are against the 'weaker' teams doing all they can to make the playoffs (ATL, CHI, CHA, DET, WSH, CLE, NY, BKN).
    8 are against teams blatantly tanking (Orlando, Milwaukee, Philly).
    3 games versus Boston and who the eff knows what they are doing.

    For good measure there are 3 games versus Utah and Sacramento.

    As we all know, it is not the job of players and coaches to tank. When shitty teams see another shitty team on the schedule, they are stepping up to play because it is a 'winnable' game. Nobody wants to be a loser - listen to Sullinger talk about it for Boston or DeRozan for the Raptors. So again, you take Lowry off this team and suddenly.....



    Not sure if I really have a point here anymore.... oh wait, yes I do!

    The Raps tank is possible but every win makes it more difficult. After January 15th you are then getting in to the territory where I agree with so many 'anti-tankers' that you need lottery luck. After January 15th there are 44 games left.



    26 games until trade deadline.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #240
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I disagree.... surprise!

    With all those teams tanking against each other, they all play one another - especially the eastern conference teams - somebody has to win each game. What will likely happen is a bunch of teams are going to be separated by 3-4 wins.

    At the start of the year it was, "Raps will never be worse than Phoenix or Boston." Guess what? Those teams aren't bad. Then you have teams like Charlotte, Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who have ownership/management making it clear they are looking to win this year. Then you have teams like Brooklyn and New York who are dysfunctional and injured but have talent. They also have no draft picks and are likely to put together a string of wins, at the very least, at some point.

    Assuming the Raptors trade Lowry (or the unimaginable which I'll leave you to imagine), the only teams in the league that are really unmatchable in the tank are Philly and Milwaukee. After that I think it is debatable on Sacramento, Utah, and Orlando. But no question each win is making it more difficult, if that is the end goal.


    I think there is still plenty of time to tank. Yet again, tanking doesn't require having the worst record. Finishing 4th worst gives a 99% chance at a top 6 pick.

    Raps have 54 games left - 36 are against the east. Of those 36:

    5 are against Indiana and Miami.
    20 are against the 'weaker' teams doing all they can to make the playoffs (ATL, CHI, CHA, DET, WSH, CLE, NY, BKN).
    8 are against teams blatantly tanking (Orlando, Milwaukee, Philly).
    3 games versus Boston and who the eff knows what they are doing.

    For good measure there are 3 games versus Utah and Sacramento.

    As we all know, it is not the job of players and coaches to tank. When shitty teams see another shitty team on the schedule, they are stepping up to play because it is a 'winnable' game. Nobody wants to be a loser - listen to Sullinger talk about it for Boston or DeRozan for the Raptors. So again, you take Lowry off this team and suddenly.....



    Not sure if I really have a point here anymore.... oh wait, yes I do!

    The Raps tank is possible but every win makes it more difficult. After January 15th you are then getting in to the territory where I agree with so many 'anti-tankers' that you need lottery luck. After January 15th there are 44 games left.



    26 games until trade deadline.
    Lol. Only Matt can come up with a detailed roadmap to suckage, just off the top of his head. Twisted, man. lmao. Anyways, I think Chicago is going to start tanking hard, if not started already. Bulls have basically a Duncan-Robinson situation, with Rose out and a perfect excuse to go all out for hometown boy, Jabari. All they need to do is flip Deng for a 1st rounder and then they've got 3 first rounders (own, Cats, + Deng flip) & assets like Butler that they can trade for Jabari. They really need Noah to go down, because that's one guy that cannot accept losing, under any condition. Amd then there's Thibs - he can probably win 40 games with a D-league squad.

    And that's the other wildcard - injuries. With Horford out, I could see Atlanta doing the Asik for Millsap deal with Houston, and then they have zero frontcourt offense and could drop like a rock. Wait and see who else gets injured. Happens every season, but I think we're going to see it earlier and in bigger numbers. It's going to look truly pathetic for the NBA.

    Too many balls in play here - but I guess you're generally right. It IS still possible to sink fast, but each win is an absolute killer for pro-tankers. Glad I'm not one of them.

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