Debate settled......

[CalgaryRapsFan]

CalgaryRapsFan (I'm one of those too, ha), thanks for the reasoned and civilized discussion, while actually responding to my points in my original post of this particular discussion.

If we're going to speculate what this trade signals, about the only thing I absolutely see coming is Lowry being moved, primarily due to his expiring contract. As far as other valuable assets (DD, JV, Ross, Amir in my mind), unless some "can't refuse" offer comes along, I see him hanging on to all of them, even if for no other the reason, to use as trade chips, after the draft lottery, to try and target a high pick.

1st bold - I suppose it can be done

2nd bold - I said pretty much the same thing in another thread today, when a poster (j-claw I think) asked which players are likely to be traded next (I split roster into 4 groups, in terms of likelihood of them being traded)

[p00ka]

Indeed possible. But what if there are no takers post lottery? Seems like allowing our own pick to rise (by losing a lot of games this year) gives Ujiri much more control regarding the draft.

Not much less "control" than putting what you think is a losing team on the floor, then depending on that team of players "co-operating", along with the other 29 teams, then the lottery. No question that if such speculation on my part has many risks of not succeeding in the desired goal, but everything I see in MU tells me he isn't a guy to rush into some blind dismantling of the team to the point of guaranteeing a top 5 pick.

[p00ka]

1st bold - I suppose it can be done

2nd bold - I said pretty much the same thing in another thread today, when a poster (j-claw I think) asked which players are likely to be traded next (I split roster into 4 groups, in terms of likelihood of them being traded)

I saw that, and I'm totally in line with it. Hmmmm, slowly but surely, the gap between some tankers and some anti-tankers is narrowing. Heinz is spot on. The term, and the definition of what it was coined to describe, possibly causes more issues than any specific differences in what we all want to see in the long run.

[heinz57]

The semantics around the term "tank"/"tanking" has been the cause of a months-long feud around these here parts!

for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol

[Chr1s1anL]

I would also like to add that Vasquez has similar PER to Gay 14.52 in 10 less minutes.


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[mcHAPPY]

for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol

I agree with a lot of your points.

To further cloud the discussion I would point out those who wish to build with what is on the roster tend to think this team is fairly good as is. Those who are happy as losses pile up tend to realize the team is not very good.

I will point out one thing about this trade which adds to the argument p00ka typically puts forth and takes away one of the key arguments I had used about trying to win with the team as is: financial flexibility. The Raptors actually have it now.

To be the ever pessimist tank driver I am though I will also highlight trading for a top talent is likely to be difficult with Ujiri's proclamations of building through the draft and free agency is not a realistic option at this time just because the Raptors smell of losing and, in my opinion, are a couple of seasons ways away from shedding it at best.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol

haha fair enough

With regards to the bold, that is part of the long-term team-building strategy supported by pro-tankers, no doubt.

The rift between the two sides is that anti-tankers seem to view the bold as the strategy, while pro-tankers view the upcoming draft as a small part of a much larger strategy (and the additional Ping-Pong balls are simply a residual benefit of deciding to follow that strategy now, before the season ends or even just before the trade deadline when the Raptors inevitably become sellers anyway).

Semantics are around whether tanking is the strategy, or just a residual benefit of a desired rebuilding/building/retooling strategy.

Those semantics leads to arguments and an overwhelming need for alcohol! lol

[p00ka]

for me, and I'll assume for Pooka as well, is there is no argument about the semantics of the term. Tanking to me is a specific thing. It's losing NOW to reap the benefits of ping pong balls in the lottery and/or a high pick in the upcoming draft. it's pretty cut and dry, for me.

I personally choose to stay out of tanking threads (hence, why you just don't see me in the main forum AT ALL anymore).. Me from a couple years ago would have came into each thread pointing out "LOSER TALK" as much as possible, name calling, and getting confrontational... not to be a troll or anything, but........... well, now that I think about it... I was totally trolling

nowadays, I can't even go into a thread to drop a good joke, because as soon as I open ANY thread it's all "tank this tank that"...

I had to swallow up an awesome "now that Sacramento got Gay, can we call them the Queens again?" line, because I wanted no part of the vitriol

Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.

Other than that, thanks for the words of wisdom in avoiding the constant tank bombardment. This old dog will try and learn new tricks to follow suit. Your sense of humour is sure sorely missed around here though. Despite my early battles with Nilanka, I sure appreciate his attempts to bring levity to discussions, but it doesn't quite fill the void. Cheers

[OldSkoolCool]

So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.

Rebuilding with the residual benefit of an in-season, pre-trade-deadline tank.

Pre-emptive trade-deadline sellers. This one avoids the ethical/emotional/karmic backlash associated with "tanking".

[Superjudge]

The win over the Lakers set in motion an antitank sentiment. A win Against SA will cement that. Then, they can send in hald dead clones to finish out the season with 9 wins

[mcHAPPY]

So for those of us who want to cut salary, collect assets and picks while being a bad team because of those 2 things call ourselves?

Tanking is an apt description to me. Tanking is a result of the rebuilding process in order to have a 'clean-slate' to build upon. Tanking means that we go out and play hard and try to develop those young prospects this season, but there isn't enough talent on the roster to win a lot of games. Basically it is an evaluation of the roster.

If you 'anti-tankers' are assuming that we want to make our players play badly in order to lose games, your assumptions are the only problems on this MB.

That is a good point too.

[Uncle_Si]

Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.

Other than that, thanks for the words of wisdom in avoiding the constant tank bombardment. This old dog will try and learn new tricks to follow suit. Your sense of humour is sure sorely missed around here though. Despite my early battles with Nilanka, I sure appreciate his attempts to bring levity to discussions, but it doesn't quite fill the void. Cheers

You're right we're chasing ping pong balls and trying to build from there. Well what do they represent? In this draft they represent an opportunity that comes once a decade to draft a player that can change the course of your franchise. Seeing how our course has been pretty awful and the amount of players in this draft (represented by those Ping pong balls) that could change our franchise exist, well yes I am willing to chase ping pong balls. I want lots of ping pong balls too as many as we can possibly get. Any ping pong balls really so long as there's lots of them.

[OldSkoolCool]

Rebuilding with the residual benefit of an in-season, pre-trade-deadline tank.

Pre-emptive trade-deadline sellers. This one avoids the ethical/emotional/karmic backlash associated with "tanking".

Those work...however I do not want to sound like the wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man, when I could just say tank..

[LBF]

Bold: a perfectly valid assumption. And from the vast majority of what I've read, no matter what the attempts to cloak it differently, that's exactly what it means.

This goes for me as well. I'm too lazy to search for Heinz post, so I'll just go with pooka's.