Debate settled......

[p00ka]

There are 407 posts in this thread: http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...-Track-Edition

"I demand answers! No, I don't want to read your answers! I want to demand answers! Now, dammit!"

This conversation is stellar.

You seem to assume I read everything on here. I don't have the time to, certainly not 407 posts. Does any of them say how this trade:
1. Unloaded talent and got draft picks and prospects?
2. Provide a good argument against my point that this trade, on it's own, could easily make this team better, contrary to the very basic concept of "tanking"?

Because that was my whole point about people getting carried away with this "proof of tanking" chest-thumping going on.

[Uncle_Si]

You seem to assume I read everything on here. I don't have the time to, certainly not 407 posts. Does any of them say how this trade:
1. Unloaded talent and got draft picks and prospects?
2. Provide a good argument against my point that this trade, on it's own, could easily make this team better, contrary to the very basic concept of "tanking"?

Because that was my whole point about people getting carried away with this "proof of tanking" chest-thumping going on.

By unloading Gays contract and having a better idea of financial going forward it has given Masai more options to build this team. Sure we might be better as of right now, but we also have a lot of moveable pieces that can bring in prospects and draft picks. That (and Masais comments) is why I think he's looking at a rebuild by tank. The fact that he didn't acquire picks or assets in this particular trade does not mean that be won't in future ones. If you want to know his direction look at his haul from the Bargnani trade. That trade I believe is more along the lines of his direction and unloading Rudy was just a means of being able to continue down that path.

[mcHAPPY]

Even after the interview I don't think Massai is T word.
If he wanted to lose more games wouldn't it of been better to get Jimmer instead of Vasquez ?

Asset accumulation.

Who is better asset moving forward?

[Chr1s1anL]

Asset accumulation.

Who is better asset moving forward?

I get that but what's more important to you tankers losing games or assets accumulation? It seems like a gamble.


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[Nilanka]

I get that but what's more important to you tankers losing games or assets accumulation? It seems like a gamble.


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We're talking about a packup PG. Not going to make a difference either way.

[Uncle_Si]

Asset accumulation.

Who is better asset moving forward?

That and who will help develop our young players further. JV should benefit significantly from the PNR and Ross should see some more open looks

[mcHAPPY]

I get that but what's more important to you tankers losing games or assets accumulation? It seems like a gamble.


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How many wins has Vasquez led New Orleans or Sacramento to?

My assumption is Lowry is gone sooner than later and Casey remains as coach.

[p00ka]

I believe I already did, for one. Nilanka as well.

Looking at this trade in a vacuum, without any commentary, your assessment was fine. It very well could be addition-by-subtraction and simply wanting to remove such an albatross of a contract.

However, I think BC was right in his assessment also, when saying in a vacuum Gay was the most talented player involved in the trade. Obviously, there are many more factors at play than talent (ie: talent VS production VS salary), whether it's a tanking trade or not.

For me, there were two reasons this trade had a tanking feel to it. First, Gay was the most talented player and none of the players received are going to threaten the starting lineup, with Vasquez being the only sure-thing to even make the team's 2nd string (Patterson likely will simply because the team only has 3 bigs). Second, MU's post-trade press conference. As I mentioned in my previous post, I believed it was abundantly clear that MU is focused in the future and doesn't care one way or another about this season. MU sounded like a man just beginning a process, not just finished one, meaning there are more future-facing moves coming.

I've been a 'pro-tanker' whose definition of tanking has remained constant: sacrifice this season for the betterment of next season and beyond (ie: drop deadweight players/contracts, acquire prospects/picks, improve positioning of TOR's own draft picks, build the team efficiently/effectively using the draft, free agency and trades with long-term sustainable success in mind). I perceive this trade to favor the future and, more importantly, I believe everything MU said at his press conference supports the 'future VS present' narrative. To me, it adds up to the definition of 'tanking' I've been a proponent of since the offseason (really since the moment JV was drafted, but that's another story).

Of course he's talking about it all being about the future. He damn well better be, but that doesn't spell tank, as the two points I raised, that have always been the biggest part of the touted "tank plan", do. What's been sacrificed? getting rid of the guy killing the offense game after game and contrinuting to losing far more than winning? Two end of bench guys in suits most games?

There is no doubt, and I trust MU in his words, that this is far from the last move, however that doesn't spell tank either. None of us knows what's coming next, except that MU will do what he feels is best for the long term good of this team, WHEN it's available. Hey' just saying that there is zero reason for some tankers to be trying to rub shit in anti-tankers noses over this trade. maybe some moves are yet to come that will spell "tank", but this isn't it. And if it does come? Ain't nobody going to know it will work for years to come, so there's nothing to rub and get pleasure from.

[jacobdr4]

How many wins has Vasquez led New Orleans or Sacramento to?

My assumption is Lowry is gone sooner than later and Casey remains as coach.

And the tank keeps on chugging along as planned!

[Nilanka]

Ain't nobody going to know it will work for years to come...

This sounds like what Portland said after selecting Sam Bowie

[Chr1s1anL]

How many wins has Vasquez led New Orleans or Sacramento to?

My assumption is Lowry is gone sooner than later and Casey remains as coach.

Not many but as back up general I think he will have a lot more impact in winning. For your sake I hope it's soon


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[CalgaryRapsFan]

Of course he's talking about it all being about the future. He damn well better be, but that doesn't spell tank, as the two points I raised, that have always been the biggest part of the touted "tank plan", do. What's been sacrificed? getting rid of the guy killing the offense game after game and contrinuting to losing far more than winning? Two end of bench guys in suits most games?

There is no doubt, and I trust MU in his words, that this is far from the last move, however that doesn't spell tank either. None of us knows what's coming next, except that MU will do what he feels is best for the long term good of this team, WHEN it's available. Hey' just saying that there is zero reason for some tankers to be trying to rub shit in anti-tankers noses over this trade. maybe some moves are yet to come that will spell "tank", but this isn't it. And if it does come? Ain't nobody going to know it will work for years to come, so there's nothing to rub and get pleasure from.

I definitely agree with the last bit, there really wasn't any need for that (not yet anyway).

I can't speak for them, but I believe it was directed more towards the more extreme anti-tankers who seemed to want the team to be kept together all season, believing they were a solid playoff team (with Gay).

As was discovered last week, there was actually some common ground found between the "conservative pro-tankers" and the "liberal anti-tankers" (if we think of tanking on a spectrum), revolving mostly around Gay (and possibly Lowry/Novak). To that middle ground group, I could easily see this trade not determining MU's ultimate direction, since dumping Gay's contract served those on both sides of the tank debate.

[p00ka]

By unloading Gays contract and having a better idea of financial going forward it has given Masai more options to build this team. Sure we might be better as of right now, but we also have a lot of moveable pieces that can bring in prospects and draft picks. That (and Masais comments) is why I think he's looking at a rebuild by tank. The fact that he didn't acquire picks or assets in this particular trade does not mean that be won't in future ones. If you want to know his direction look at his haul from the Bargnani trade. That trade I believe is more along the lines of his direction and unloading Rudy was just a means of being able to continue down that path.

Was it a smart move? I say brilliant.
Did it achieve MUCH more financial flexibility moving forward. YOU BET! Marvelous!
On it's own, does it say the tank is in full swing? NOT AT ALL, and there's no reason to be shouting that it is, and calling out anti-tankers like victorious #^%!(*s. Neither of the 2 major claiming points of a tank were met with this trade, which was my point.

[Uncle_Si]

Was it a smart move? I say brilliant.
Did it achieve MUCH more financial flexibility moving forward. YOU BET! Marvelous!
On it's own, does it say the tank is in full swing? NOT AT ALL, and there's no reason to be shouting that it is, and calling out anti-tankers like victorious #^%!(*s. Neither of the 2 major claiming points of a tank were met with this trade, which was my point.

Agreed and I definitely am not calling out anyone for thinking it's not a tank move. I get the impression from his recent interviews that it is. Time will tell. There really is no right or wrong idea for his direction since none of us know what it is. I think it is, I hope it is and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.

[white men can't jump]

Via RaptorsFan4Life in another thread, that I'm sure many people have already seen.

I want an encore!

This debate is getting stupid. There is no clear indication of what Masai wants to do, and that seems to be his MO. In his press conference even he said that he went to work Sunday not expecting to make a trade. Dude keeps things close to the vest, and doesn't let anyone know what his intentions are.

The closest thing to a leak about this trade was the Gray-Fredette rumour a week ago. One can hypothesize that maybe Ujiri told them no deal with Fredette and Sunday they called to include Vasquez...maybe? who knows?

Is this a tank trade? Hard to say. At best it's addition by subtraction. Is it a win-now trade? Definitely not. It may improve the quality of basketball on the floor, but it definitely doesn't raise the ceiling of the team, which before the bad start was pretty widely accepted to be roughly a .500 team give or take.

It maybe "rights" the ship a bit by taking out Gay and hoping the team plays better and more together. But it also opens up a flurry of more options as our flexibility has improved immensely from this trade. We used to have very few movable parts. Now we have many more pieces that can work as sweetener or filler when added to guys like Lowry. Pieces that might open up actually good deals for pieces we'd be reluctant to move without the right offer (DD, Amir). And pieces that make it easier to hang onto our young guys/picks by making it less likely to have to add them as sweetener.

Bottom line, from a tear it down to build it back up perspective (whatever people tend to debate in terms of timeline), this was a brilliant move that makes it easier to go in any direction as Masai tries to put this team on the right path for the first time.

So really, all that matters is whether you believe in Masai!

*EDit: I personally do believe Masai will aim for lottery balls this season. The temptation is just too great I think, especially for a guy who values the draft and cut his teeth scouting. I don't think he'll totally gut the team just to bottom out, but I find it very unlikely he'll make a trade to try and increase the team's ceiling. But yeah, I trust in his choices either way.