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Thread: Definition of Competitive

  1. #1
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    Default Definition of Competitive

    Inspired by something I saw Nilanka post.

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Yup, neither Lowry and Vasquez are our long-term solution when we're talking about fielding a competitive team 2 years from now.

    Does everyone think this is going to be a 2 year process?

    Cleveland:

    4 top 4 picks in the last 3 years - 8-13 record

    Washington

    3 top 3 picks in the last 4 years - 9-11 record

    I could delve deeper and find some failing examples, as Im sure there are a few successes although I would guess much much less.

    On the forums over the last month or so, competitiveness has been defined as championship or bust. So realistically what are your thoughts and expectations on the timeline and success of a team for you to be satisfied? Maybe supply a timeline with what you think is an acceptable W-L record for that stage in our development.
    Last edited by SitnonDfence; Thu Dec 12th, 2013 at 08:36 AM. Reason: dyslexia - for serial

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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    I wouldn't look to Cleveland or Washington as shining examples of management.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Like KHD alludes to, it's all about management making the right decisions.

    OKC had 3 straight drafts they nailed.

    Durant - 2nd
    Westbrook - 4th, Ibaka - 24th
    Harden - 3rd

    Then made the playoffs ever since.

    Chicago took D Rose first overall and made the playoffs 2 years later with 1st round picks of James Johnson and Taj Gibson.

    GSW is another example, Steph Curry, Ekpe Udoh, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes then playoffs. Considering that they kinda blew the Udoh pick (6th overall instead of Greg Monroe, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Eric Bledsoe, heck Ed Davis has been better).

    It's all about smart management. For every perennial lottery team, there is a smart team that turns it around. Trust in Masai.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't look to Cleveland or Washington as shining examples of management.
    Exactly.

    Where are Washington and Cleveland with better decisions with the opportunities they had?

    They gave themselves all the opportunities that I am hoping for the Raptors.
    The difference is they made bad choices.

    However both teams still have plenty of room to grow as they are young and Washington is going to have significant cap space to work with.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    Inspired by something I saw Nilanka post.




    Does everyone think this is going to be a 2 year process?

    Cleveland:

    4 top 4 picks in the last 3 years - 8-13 record

    Washington

    3 top 3 picks in the last 4 years - 9-11 record

    I could delve deeper and find some failing examples, as Im sure there are a few successes although I would guess much much less.

    On the forums over the last month or so, competitiveness has been defined as championship or bust. So realistically what are your thoughts and expectations on the timeline and success of a team for you to be satisfied? Maybe supply a timeline with what you think is an acceptable W-L record for that stage in our development.
    When I wrote that, my very loose definition was "to compete for a playoff spot", with the young kids leading the way. The assumption is that the team is making positive strides, and improving on win totals will continue in the years the followed.

    But that's very different than competing for a playoff spot with the roster that started the 2013-14 season, where the likelihood of improving with a capped out roster seemed nil.

    To sum up, my definition of "competitive" within a 2 year time frame is to compete for a playoff spot. My definition of "competitive" within 5 years, is 50+ wins.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    To sum up, my definition of "competitive" within a 2 year time frame is to compete for a playoff spot. My definition of "competitive" within 5 years, is 50+ wins.
    I'm sort of reminded of the 1998-99 season. It was Carter's rookie year, and TMac's 2nd year. The Raptors finished the lockout shortened season with a 23-27 record. They obviously missed the playoffs, but they were in the hunt for most of the season, and boy were they ever fun to watch, and the team improved the next 2 years with the kids doing the heavy lifting.

    I'm hoping a similar ascension is what's eventually in store for us. We just need to draft our next Carter and TMac first
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    Does everyone think this is going to be a 2 year process?
    Depends. New Orleans turned it around in two years by simply drafting Davis, who is already one of the best bigs in the NBA. Until he got hurt, they were 500 in the West.

    Competitiveness is not "championships or bust". That is stupid. Anyone who talks like that is either an idiot or is just spouting platitudes. Some of the best NBA teams of the past couple generations never won titles. Effectively, where you want to get to is a team that has a legitimate shot of getting to the conference finals. Get there, you can win a title. Get there consistently, you have sustained excellence. Ideally, that's the conversation I'd like Toronto to be in one day. It won't be two year but it needn't be 7 or 8 (as per Doug Smith) either.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Like KHD alludes to, it's all about management making the right decisions.

    OKC had 3 straight drafts they nailed.

    Durant - 2nd
    Westbrook - 4th, Ibaka - 24th
    Harden - 3rd

    Then made the playoffs ever since.
    I agree in that they nailed the draft picks, I don't agree that was because they have better management. Draft picks are hard to guarantee. Oklahoma got right fucking lucky is what happened. Good for them!


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    Depending how extreme of a rebuild MU goes for and how many 1st round picks he acquires, I could see this team starting to be competitive (ie: sniffing playoffs) two seasons from now. I believe MU is in the first year of a 3-year rebuilding plan, aiming to become truly competitive starting in the 2016-17 season. If done well, he could build a team that becomes a perennial contender (ie: for deep playoffs runs at least).

    Remember, MU signed a 5-year deal: 3 years to rebuild, 2 years to become perennial contenders.


    2013-14 - undo BC's mess, clear cap space, acquire assets (ie: prospects & draft picks)

    2014 draft - rebuild begins (ideally with multiple 1st round pick)

    2014-15 - rebuild continues (ie: development of young players is priority #1)

    2015 draft - rebuild continues

    2015-16 - should start being competitive, possibly even a playoff bubble team

    2016 draft - final step in the [re]building process (they already have 2 1st round picks in this draft)

    2016-17 - considered a strong playoff contender going into the season (ie: 1st season as perennial playoff team)


    It's all about building a young, talented core that can develop together and spend years playing together. I believe MU is going to completely rebuild this roster and build a much more efficient and effective team, with a vision for long-term, sustainable success.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Dec 12th, 2013 at 10:46 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    i think we'll be a competitive, quasi playoff team next year. buuuut that has more to do with how bad the east is than anything.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    i think we'll be a competitive, quasi playoff team next year. buuuut that has more to do with how bad the east is than anything.
    Could definitely tear down the roster and be competing for a playoff spot in 2 years because of the awfulness of the East.

    Having a promising core and being on the upswing in 2 years is also maximum optimism, though. Realistically the team could easily blow a lottery pick. But that's where the multi-pronged approach comes in - the Rockets, for example, haven't had to nail OKC-type home runs in the lottery to eventually have a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, and some nice role players. They accumulated assets in the ways that were available to them and made sure to sign only team-friendly contracts.

    I think good management could have a playoff team in this conference in 2 seasons, with a lot of room for growth left within the roster.

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  17. #12
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    the Rockets, for example, haven't had to nail OKC-type home runs in the lottery to eventually have a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, and some nice role players.
    The Rockets seem to be a rare example, difficult to duplicate. Acquiring Harden is really what turned that team around. Without Harden, there's very little reason for Howard to sign. And how often does a player like Harden even become available in trade talks (i.e. a hidden gem playing 3rd fiddle in a small market with cheap owners)?

    However, I agree that good things happen when you accumulate a plethora of young assets like Morey did.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The Rockets seem to be a rare example, difficult to duplicate. Acquiring Harden is really what turned that team around. Without Harden, there's very little reason for Howard to sign. And how often does a player like Harden even become available in trade talks (i.e. a hidden gem playing 3rd fiddle in a small market with cheap owners)?

    However, I agree that good things happen when you accumulate a plethora of young assets like Morey did.
    That's all I mean. I wouldn't bank on a stumbling into an opportunity like that, but it's one of the options, in addition to scoring big in the lottery, when you're managing your roster properly.

    Morey was actually getting criticized for acquiring all those middling assets and not having a superstar. In reality he was making the most of the opportunities he had while maintaining the flexibility to swing for the fences at some future point.

    I'd contrast that to the Mavs, who let key pieces go but didn't maintain enough assets to keep their options open. They put all their eggs in the Deron Williams and Dwight Howard basket. They're actually kind of fun right now, but a severe drop-off from championship calibre.
    Last edited by S.R.; Thu Dec 12th, 2013 at 11:56 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'm sort of reminded of the 1998-99 season. It was Carter's rookie year, and TMac's 2nd year. The Raptors finished the lockout shortened season with a 23-27 record. They obviously missed the playoffs, but they were in the hunt for most of the season, and boy were they ever fun to watch, and the team improved the next 2 years with the kids doing the heavy lifting.

    I'm hoping a similar ascension is what's eventually in store for us. We just need to draft our next Carter and TMac first
    Or just Andrew Wiggins. Wiggins and DeRozan could be a pretty impressive wing duo, probably the most dangerous in the league in a few seasons. Boy would that be fun to watch

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Like KHD alludes to, it's all about management making the right decisions.

    OKC had 3 straight drafts they nailed.

    Durant - 2nd
    Westbrook - 4th, Ibaka - 24th
    Harden - 3rd

    Then made the playoffs ever since.

    Chicago took D Rose first overall and made the playoffs 2 years later with 1st round picks of James Johnson and Taj Gibson.

    GSW is another example, Steph Curry, Ekpe Udoh, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes then playoffs. Considering that they kinda blew the Udoh pick (6th overall instead of Greg Monroe, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Eric Bledsoe, heck Ed Davis has been better).

    It's all about smart management. For every perennial lottery team, there is a smart team that turns it around. Trust in Masai.
    3 drafts they nailed? Really? You know how easy those picks were? Oooh, how savvy of you to take Kevin Durant #2, who people are calling possibly the best player since Lebron.

    Basically, you contradicted yourself completely. You talk about management this management that, then you list Chicago with their D Rose, GS with their Curry. That's not management bud, that's an MVP that doesn't come around all too often. The difference in Charlotte and Golden State is Steph Curry and Kemba Walker. Not their fault, simply luck of the draw.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Like KHD alludes to, it's all about management making the right decisions.

    OKC had 3 straight drafts they nailed.

    Durant - 2nd
    Westbrook - 4th, Ibaka - 24th
    Harden - 3rd

    Then made the playoffs ever since.

    Chicago took D Rose first overall and made the playoffs 2 years later with 1st round picks of James Johnson and Taj Gibson.

    GSW is another example, Steph Curry, Ekpe Udoh, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes then playoffs. Considering that they kinda blew the Udoh pick (6th overall instead of Greg Monroe, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, Eric Bledsoe, heck Ed Davis has been better).

    It's all about smart management. For every perennial lottery team, there is a smart team that turns it around. Trust in Masai.
    Then there was Portland
    They made all of their picks right (even Oden was the right pick as he was regarded as a can't miss player, experts were saying that 29 other teams would have done the same thing)
    they never got out of the 1st round, and a few years later, they were back to where they were before.

  22. #17
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    3 drafts they nailed? Really? You know how easy those picks were? Oooh, how savvy of you to take Kevin Durant #2, who people are calling possibly the best player since Lebron.

    Basically, you contradicted yourself completely. You talk about management this management that, then you list Chicago with their D Rose, GS with their Curry. That's not management bud, that's an MVP that doesn't come around all too often. The difference in Charlotte and Golden State is Steph Curry and Kemba Walker. Not their fault, simply luck of the draw.
    Yeah, they nailed it. You say Durant was an easy pick, but as many anti-tankers like to point out, drafts are risk as prospects could be a bust. They also nailed the other 2 drafts including a late pick (Ibaka), which the OP proves with Cleveland and Washington, isn't a sure thing. So since the OP lists two teams with multiple high lottery picks that didn't work out, my response provides examples of the opposite. The point is that nothing is guaranteed, but you need to trust in management to make the right decisions. Don't see how I contradicted that anywhere.

    The Chicago and GSW are other examples of how, if management drafts well, it doesn't take years to get back into competitiveness. D Rose was a #1 pick that lead his team to the playoffs, you don't think that applies to this draft too? Wiggins, Parker, Randle, Exum, Smart, etc...you don't think any of them are capable? If Steph Curry was such an obvious MVP star then how come he was passed over 6 times?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    Then there was Portland
    They made all of their picks right (even Oden was the right pick as he was regarded as a can't miss player, experts were saying that 29 other teams would have done the same thing)
    they never got out of the 1st round, and a few years later, they were back to where they were before.
    Portland got unlucky with injuries. Injuries can happen regardless if you pick 1st or 30th. No point avoiding getting better players for fear of random injury (not the same as avoiding a player with injury risk already established).

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Portland got unlucky with injuries. Injuries can happen regardless if you pick 1st or 30th. No point avoiding getting better players for fear of random injury (not the same as avoiding a player with injury risk already established).
    Plus the current cornerstones of the Blazers are....dare I say.....LOTTO PICKS!
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Could definitely tear down the roster and be competing for a playoff spot in 2 years because of the awfulness of the East.

    Having a promising core and being on the upswing in 2 years is also maximum optimism, though. Realistically the team could easily blow a lottery pick. But that's where the multi-pronged approach comes in - the Rockets, for example, haven't had to nail OKC-type home runs in the lottery to eventually have a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, and some nice role players. They accumulated assets in the ways that were available to them and made sure to sign only team-friendly contracts.

    I think good management could have a playoff team in this conference in 2 seasons, with a lot of room for growth left within the roster.
    Yeah, they did it in Houston. Players like Houston.

    Players don't like Toronto

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