View Poll Results: Which position provides the toughest opponent to guard on a nightly basis?

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  • Point Guard

    7 41.18%
  • Shooting Guard

    1 5.88%
  • Small Forward

    8 47.06%
  • Power Forward

    1 5.88%
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Thread: John Wall mentions Jose and Kyle

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Default John Wall mentions Jose and Kyle

    found this while searching for Lowry trade rumours on rumours page of hoopshype.

    John Wall: This is the hardest position in the league to me. Every night somebody is coming at you. Seriously. You get no breaks. People can look at the schedule and you see Kyle Lowry or Jose Calderon and those guys aren’t always talked about, but some of the toughest challenges I have is against guys like that. Because you have to show them the same respect you do a Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook." NBA.com - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.9n0ClaqG.dpuf

    Interesting perspective, and I just thought it was funny that his random examples of PGs you couldn't take for granted are our current and former starting PGs.

    Begs the question though, do you agree with him? Which is the hardest position in the league in terms of strength of opponents? Asked in a different way at which position are you most consistently going to find the toughest match ups?


    EDIT: Came up with the poll question after the original posting. If a mod wants to edit to reflect that, that's cool with me.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Mon Dec 16th, 2013 at 04:51 AM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    found this while searching for Lowry trade rumours on rumours page of hoopshype.




    Interesting perspective, and I just thought it was funny that his random examples of PGs you couldn't take for granted are our current and former starting PGs.

    Begs the question though, do you agree with him? Which is the hardest position in the league in terms of strength of opponents? Asked in a different way at which position are you most consistently going to find the toughest match ups?


    EDIT: Came up with the poll question after the original posting. If a mod wants to edit to reflect that, that's cool with me.
    I think the PG spot (and the C if it matters) are incredibly deep right now in the NBA. All else being equal, I also think PG is the toughest position to defend 1 on 1 for reasons above and beyond the depth at the position (need to react to or anticipate which direction the quickest and most diverse players in the league will go in while moving east/west/backwards). Although not as physically punishing as the 4/5.

    Mind you I don't completely understand his rational... how does showing Jose/Kyle the same 'respect' as Rose/Westbrook make them some of the toughest challenges?

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Mind you I don't completely understand his rational... how does showing Jose/Kyle the same 'respect' as Rose/Westbrook make them some of the toughest challenges?
    Because even if they are not superstars like Derrick and Russell, they are great players, professional basketball players.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Mind you I don't completely understand his rational... how does showing Jose/Kyle the same 'respect' as Rose/Westbrook make them some of the toughest challenges?
    I think he is saying 1 of 2 possible things

    1) In the article as a whole his talking about his transition to the league and how he's changed over the years. I read it as though in the past he may not have taken other PGs seriously because they weren't hyped in the media (your Calderon's and Lowry's if you will) but he's come to realize that if you don't game plan and take every opposing PG seriously aka "respect their game" then any point guard in the league can go off on you.

    OR

    2) He is saying that the quality of PGs in the league is so good right now, that even though you respect them and mentally prepare, on any given night an opposing PG can be a challenge, so even though no one talks about Jose or Lowry, they can still be difficult to guard on any given night; therefore they must be respected.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Because even if they are not superstars like Derrick and Russell, they are great players, professional basketball players.
    How does that make them tougher to guard though?

    they can still be difficult to guard on any given night; therefore they must be respected.
    I get that, and I'm not saying its false. My question is regarding how they are the 'some of the toughest' challenges. I get the idea that they are tougher than they appear, or need to be respected, or can't be taken for granted, or all those.

    I can maybe see how its tougher to mentally prepare or stay focused for those guys on top of/or after guarding the premier players. But if there was any truth to that ('worse' players = tougher to guard) then logic would tell us the worse the player therefore the tougher they are to guard... which would then seem to indicate everything we know could be backwards (better players are actually worse players, they are just easier to guard).

    Honestly its not that big of deal, and likely just words (maybe excuses) - you know, trying to explain why he just got taken to school by an mediocre guard without admitting he got lazy or underestimated his opponent.

    I have a bad habit of questioning something that just seems completely illogical to me, even if its not really on topic.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    How does that make them tougher to guard though?
    I have a bad habit of questioning something that just seems completely illogical to me, even if its not really on topic.
    No worries, I do the same thing. He is NOT saying, players that are overlooked by the media are tougher to guard than a Rose or Westbrooke, he is saying that they have the ABILITY to and sometimes ARE as hard or even more hard to guard than Rose or Westbrooke. Which is possible. It is possible to have more difficulty guarding a worse player who just happens to be playing exceptionally well than a superstar who is having an off game. Also, there may be other effects he himself is not conscious off. Maybe the he played against Westbrooke was right when he was returning from injury at home, and a game against Jose was on a second night of a back to back on the road. This might account for why an opponent of less talent/skill seemed harder to guard, but in Wall's mind when the game is over he's just like "Man! Jose was harder than Westbrooke, to guard tonight!"

    I don't think Wall would argue that Lowry or Jose is better than Rose or Westbrooke, just that they may have been a tougher guard in certain scenarios and that the point guard position is so staked right now that on any given night the opposing PG can make it very difficult on you.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    I seems he is saying that no matter who you are guarding, you need to maintain mental focus because all the other PG's in the league are capable of going off on you. You can't afford take a night off, in terms of respecting what the opposing pppg is capable of.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Yea, I'm with Puffer. I think what he means is when he's guarding someone and it isn't Derrick Rose, then he probably tends to take the matchup more lightly and then gets burned for it. It's a lot like the symptoms the Raptors used to have when they constantly played down to bad opponents. If Wall played consistently hard every night, then I'm sure he would say something different about Jose and Kyle, like:

    "I play hard every night, some nights are tough like when I face Westbrook or Rose, but other times that hard work pays off, like when I face Jose or Kyle."
    your pal,
    ebrian

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Does Wall have the same agent as Lowry and Calderon by any chance?

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Yea, I'm with Puffer. I think what he means is when he's guarding someone and it isn't Derrick Rose, then he probably tends to take the matchup more lightly and then gets burned for it. It's a lot like the symptoms the Raptors used to have when they constantly played down to bad opponents. If Wall played consistently hard every night, then I'm sure he would say something different about Jose and Kyle, like:

    "I play hard every night, some nights are tough like when I face Westbrook or Rose, but other times that hard work pays off, like when I face Jose or Kyle."
    What? Everyone else had it and you came in and said the opposite of what it was. He was giving nothing but respect to the middle of the road PG's and saying there are no easy nights in the NBA so you have to try all the time, plain and simple.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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  12. #11
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Im going to say both guard positions so much chasing around its tough.

  13. #12
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    PG is really deep now. When Jose was just emerging as a legit starter, he and Jameer Nelson were two of the bright up and comers. The position was really weak just before Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Now it's definitely one of the deepest - maybe the deepest.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    PG is really deep now. When Jose was just emerging as a legit starter, he and Jameer Nelson were two of the bright up and comers. The position was really weak just before Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Now it's definitely one of the deepest - maybe the deepest.
    I was thinking the same thing.

    Right now, you need an elite defensive player at the position because the quality of PG's today are insane. Most of these guys are so good in the pick and roll, or getting to the basket, that they put too much pressure on the defense for you to take it lightly.

    Forget Chris Paul and Deron Williams, but even look at a guy like curry, Wall, or lillard or tony parker and mike conley (who everyone forgets about).

    BUT, back in the 90's early 2000's, (and maybe even before), when the league was post-oriented, you had guys like shaq and hakeem who would destroy you if you didn't have a center. Think about it: David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe, Rik Smits, divac, elden campbell, etc.

    Now, you can't even name 10 centers, let alone name 10 elite players playing that position.

    It's the same with PG's and the league will always shift between these two positions because unless you have an above average wing player who can break you down and pass the ball (kobe, lebron, etc.) these two positions are typically the focal points of the offense and most important on defense.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    What? Everyone else had it and you came in and said the opposite of what it was. He was giving nothing but respect to the middle of the road PG's and saying there are no easy nights in the NBA so you have to try all the time, plain and simple.
    THat's exactly what I said.
    your pal,
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Jose Calderon gave Wall fits.
    So did Lowry.

    He is saying, and its true, that you are starting in the NBA if you are a great player, and that ALL pg's he faces are really, really fucking good.

  17. #16
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    I think he's saying that even though the media doesn't acknowledge all the PGs in the league, regardless of who you are playing on a particular night its going to be a tough matchup

  18. #17
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    In some ways I think PF might be the toughest position to guard right now. Not because of the depth at the position, (it's certainly far from the deepest in the league right now, I'd put it right in the middle with PG and SF being deepest, C and SG thinnest), but because of the way the position is used. Starting with the stretch 4: at this point just about every team in the league has one guy who fits into the stretch big category, and even traditional PFs are adding some perimeter shooting to their offensive game. Yet defensive skillsets aren't changing nearly as quickly. Are there any PFs in the league who you can look at and say, "yeah, he's a great perimeter defender." Maybe, but only a couple, and only in relativity: "that guy doesn't look totally lost when he needs to defend on the perimeter" is about as much a compliment as you could make. When a PF gets pulled out to the perimeter and then embarrassed, you just shrug it off because it happens so often these days. It's just so far from the defensive skillsets that these guys have been developing through their careers. I don't think most PFs in the league would be particularly good at guarding themselves. Plus they need to contend with playing small ball against a particularly good generation of SFs. The entire smallball strategy is about exploiting PFs. Pick-and-rolling with a PF is largely about exploiting the opposing PF too.

    PGs are guarding essentially the same skillsets and same styles of players that they've guarded since highschool, albeit at a much higher level. Some guys are pass-first, some guys are pure scorers, most are somewhere inbetween, but there are no skillsets or strategies forcing anyone to radically adapt their game. Offensive skills and defensive skills are more or less evenly matched. Granted, what Wall's saying here is true, at PG you never get a night off. For PFs, they will get a night off every now and then, thanks to the lack of depth at the position.
    tank-agnostic

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Wall mentioned Jose because Jose schooled him in his rookie year!!
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

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    Wall secretly wants to be a Raptors hehe

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I seems he is saying that no matter who you are guarding, you need to maintain mental focus because all the other PG's in the league are capable of going off on you. You can't afford take a night off, in terms of respecting what the opposing pppg is capable of.
    Bang on.

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