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Thread: What's your price on Amir?

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Rookie phdmac's Avatar
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    I fully understand the desire to get something for a great asset like Amir. The problem is his value to the team likely greatly exceeds what other teams may see in him. To me he is the kind of player that this team will need when it is ready to win. Although he is more ideally suited to being a versatile big off the bench that can play the 4 and 5. Similar to DeMar, I like these guys that work their ass off and show improvement every year
    Ball Don't Lie

  2. #122
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote phdmac wrote: View Post
    He was the greatest of all-time. At full court baseball bounce passes that went out of bounds and ill timed behind the back passes that also found the seats
    No one talks about it but if Oak had just made that gimme layup 40 seconds earlier it wouldn't have had to come down to Vince's hero three to try and win the series. Shades of Ewing, Oak. *****

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic Rookie Ion66's Avatar
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    Trade Amir for a late 1st round pick, or 2nd round picks?? Why in the hell would you even think that this is some sort of upgrade or improvement? The only way I would move him, is as part of a larger package to get a star or near star player that will improve the team going forward. His contract is reasonable, he's developed (unlike a late 1st rounder), he's a good/very good player, he's mature, he has a solid work ethic that is invaluable to any team, and he puts fans in the seats. Maybe I'm crazy, but when I am a fan of a team, I'm a fan of the players, as much as the jersey. Trade away the people I like to watch playing, and I am less and less inclined to watch. Reward loyalty with "Don't let the door hit you on he way out" and I'm even less of a fan. Taking a great guy and excellent player and swapping that for some kid, who will sit on the bench more than play, and probably not amount to what Amir is now, on some off chance that they become better down the road is just plain nuts to me. I'm not putting Amir in the star category by any means but I wonder if the Internet had existed back in the 80's like it is today, if you'd see stuff like "Larry Bird is good, but he's getting old. I'd take a top 15 pick and some prospects for him easy."....."Kareem is going to be on the decline. Move his ass now for picks while he still has some value."..."Reggie Miller has never brought us a championship. A top 12 pick and a few scrubs to make the numbers work is fair market value."

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  5. #124
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    The top prospects aren't as good as in 2003, but personally, I think this class is deeper.
    I'm not sure how you could know that at this point. But to illustrate my point even further about just how bad your odds are at getting someone better than Amir in the 5 - 15 range of a draft, here are those players for the past 10 years:

    2004:
    Devin Harris
    Josh Childress
    Luol Deng
    Rafael Araújo
    Andre Iguodala+
    Luke Jackson
    Andris Biedriņš
    Robert Swift
    Sebastian Telfair
    Kris Humphries
    Al Jefferson

    Okay this would take forever actually. Just do yourself a favor (not you specifically, anyone) and peruse the last 10 years. In any given draft class you have basically a 10% chance or LESS to pick up an above avg player in this range. Cost benefit analysis says that's not worth dealing an already established above league avg guy on a good contract who likes playing here.

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  7. #125
    Raptors Republic Rookie Ion66's Avatar
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    Quote phdmac wrote: View Post
    I fully understand the desire to get something for a great asset like Amir. The problem is his value to the team likely greatly exceeds what other teams may see in him. To me he is the kind of player that this team will need when it is ready to win. Although he is more ideally suited to being a versatile big off the bench that can play the 4 and 5. Similar to DeMar, I like these guys that work their ass off and show improvement every year
    That basically sums up my feelings exactly. Amirs "market" value is less than his "team" and "fan" value. Garlic is worth less than ground beef, but take it out of a meat sauce, and your pasta suffers. Taste it, then tell me what garlic is worth.

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  9. #126
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Its Woj or gtfo for me
    Amen, if woj reports it, it's legit

  10. #127
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    No one talks about it but if Oak had just made that gimme layup 40 seconds earlier it wouldn't have had to come down to Vince's hero three to try and win the series. Shades of Ewing, Oak. *****
    Not to mention, if Antonio Davis hadn't sat the entire 4th in foul trouble. To this day that's what cost us the game imo.

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  12. #128
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure how you could know that at this point. But to illustrate my point even further about just how bad your odds are at getting someone better than Amir in the 5 - 15 range of a draft, here are those players for the past 10 years:

    2004:
    Devin Harris
    Josh Childress
    Luol Deng
    Rafael Araújo
    Andre Iguodala+
    Luke Jackson
    Andris Biedriņš
    Robert Swift
    Sebastian Telfair
    Kris Humphries
    Al Jefferson

    Okay this would take forever actually. Just do yourself a favor (not you specifically, anyone) and peruse the last 10 years. In any given draft class you have basically a 10% chance or LESS to pick up an above avg player in this range. Cost benefit analysis says that's not worth dealing an already established above league avg guy on a good contract who likes playing here.
    LOL, you can not be serious with this post !!! Look little further down the 15 Josh Smith, JR Smith, Jameer Nelson and ... You can get very good players from 5-15 and even lower in the first round. It is all about doing your homework and having the right staff.

  13. #129
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    The top prospects aren't as good as in 2003, but personally, I think this class is deeper.
    I would agree. And I'd say that really it's only LeBron that puts 2003 over the top. Are Melo, Darko, Bosh and Wade guys who seemed like better prospects than Parker, Randle, Smart, Exum, Embiid and Wiggins? I don't think so. All the hype in 2003 was just about LeBron. He was obviously a generational talent and will be in "best ever" debates for as long as basketball is something people talk about.

    If those guys were all in the same class? I'd take Parker over Melo for attitude. Randle over Bosh for polish and strength. Exum and Smart are arguably better prospects than Wade was as they're younger and more developed than Wade at the same age. Embiid on physical talent alone is better than Darko. And then you still have Gordon and Lavine who could be in the 6-10 range and are far more intriguing than guys like Kaman, Hinrich, Ford, Michael "what's a diet?" Sweetney, and Jarvis Hayes.

    Does that mean all these guys are sure things? No. Of course not. But I feel like just because there isn't an obvious "LeBron-type" player people argue it's not worth getting a high pick. Remember that even Jordan went 3rd overall and had heavy criticism of his game coming into the NBA. "Sure things" come along very rarely and even the guy considered the greatest of all time wasn't considered one when he was drafted, and typically that is a label rarely bestowed on non-big men, as the "sure things" that came before LeBron were....Duncan, Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem....

    If you're randomly going to choose strong drafts at the top, there are non-2003 examples that could be just as relevant.

    1984 top 10
    Hakeem Olajuwon -HOFer and Champion
    Sam Bowie - bust because of injuries, but fairly talented
    Jordan - HOFer and Champion
    Sam Perkins - A long successful career as a great big
    Charles Barkley - HOFer
    Melvin Turpin - bust
    Alvin Robertson - Multiple all-star and great 2-way player for many years
    Lancaster Gordon - bust
    Otis Thorpe - Champion, one-time all-star, decent scorer and steady double double threat for over a decade
    Leon Wood - bust

    That's 6 solid players, including 3 HOFers.

    IF we include up to 16 (yes, pushing one farther than 15)

    Kevin Willis - One time all-star, Champion (at the end of his career) and one of the steadiest starting Cs in the league for well over a decade
    Tim McCormick - Unspectacular 8 year career as a role player (8.3 pts and 4.9 rbs)
    Jay Humphries - Decent role-playing guard for roughly a decade (11.1 pts and 5.5 asts)
    Michael Cage - Another role player as a big, who had a long career averaging 7.3 pts and 7.6 rbs (played from 1984-2000)
    Terence Stansbury - Bust
    John Stockton - HOFer, multiple all-star and one of the top PGs of all time

    So that's a lot of good players, with a few solid role players, and only 5 complete busts in the top 16.

    *Edit: This post is not at all to suggest we should trade Amir for a pick. I want to keep him. It's just to point out that it is far from impossible to get a solid player in the top 15 or so of a draft. And that also it's pretty impossible to compare drafts across time as there is always uncertainty. A guy who's considered fat and undisciplined could turn out to be Charles Barkley.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Dec 17th, 2013 at 03:12 PM.

  14. #130
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The thing with Amir is that he doesn't have an elite skill. He's not an elite scorer, or passer, or defender. I'd say is "pretty good" in multiple areas, which makes him a solid piece to any rotation.

    But when GMs are evaluating their rosters, I'm assuming they identify specific needs (like 3pt shooting, shot blocking, etc.). That is, they look for specialty players who are elite at something. Based on this, I could see Amir being portrayed as less valuable than he actually is.
    THIS.

    Much like Bruce Bowen. You know with the Spurs Bowen's value was off the charts, but i dont think any other GM really sought trades with the Spurs to acquire him. He can shoot the three and is a defensive master, but what he brings to the Spurs far outweighs what his real worth is. Most of the time, players like Amir and Bowen thrive in a particular environment, and not every situation they are put in, youd expect the same results.

    Amir alone probably wont give the Raptors that much in return but packaged with either Lowry or Demar could net them something quite valuable, i'd say a first round pick (10 or later), or maybe a jeff green or kahwi leonard type player.

  15. #131
    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    Quote consmap wrote: View Post
    For me I'd trade away Amir for a top 10 pick.
    But I'd rather keep him forever and ever.

    Amir is what you hope a top 10 pick turns into after 3 seasons - he still young, he likes Toronto - he'll re-sign here - it would be stupid to trade him for a top 10 pick & no team is going to give you the top 5 pick for him that would be worth getting excited over.

    Tyler Hansbrough is someone you could consider trading for a lottery pick - but again - no good reason to bother as you'd be lucky to end up with a player as good 3 years from now - but there's no "attachment" to Toronto yet so he's a better player to trade.

    A lot of these trade "suggestions" floating around right now really come under the heading of - Why would you do that exactly? How does that make this team better? You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    I like the keep him idea
    The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

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  17. #132
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Amir is what you hope a top 10 pick turns into after 3 seasons - he still young, he likes Toronto - he'll re-sign here - it would be stupid to trade him for a top 10 pick & no team is going to give you the top 5 pick for him that would be worth getting excited over.

    Tyler Hansbrough is someone you could consider trading for a lottery pick - but again - no good reason to bother as you'd be lucky to end up with a player as good 3 years from now - but there's no "attachment" to Toronto yet so he's a better player to trade.

    A lot of these trade "suggestions" floating around right now really come under the heading of - Why would you do that exactly? How does that make this team better? You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    I like the keep him idea
    I dont think teams with a chance of a top 10 pick will trade that pick for Hansborough, i mean he's a good hustle player but guys like him are a dime a dozen, hence the 1 year guarantee with the Raps.

    I think GMs will likely choose potential, so probably Ross or Valanciunas will have a value of a top ten pick, IMO.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I dont think teams with a chance of a top 10 pick will trade that pick for Hansborough, i mean he's a good hustle player but guys like him are a dime a dozen, hence the 1 year guarantee with the Raps.

    I think GMs will likely choose potential, so probably Ross or Valanciunas will have a value of a top ten pick, IMO.

    I don't know where these dreams come from ... Tyler for Lottery pick !!! A player who signed for 1.5 million and no one wanted him and now, he is worth a lottery pick.

    I am telling you, if we still had Weems, people would have asked for a lottery pick for him as well.

  19. #134
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    I would trade amir in a second. His value is at a all time high and we are a rebuilding team, it doesn't make any sense to keep him, unless GM's are offering us bad deals.

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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Amir is what you hope a top 10 pick turns into after 3 seasons - he still young, he likes Toronto - he'll re-sign here - it would be stupid to trade him for a top 10 pick & no team is going to give you the top 5 pick for him that would be worth getting excited over.
    So your hope for TOP 10 player in draft in 3 years is Amir Johnson ... So where are the stars of this league drafted ?? Aren't they drafted in top 10 ?? Guy like AI, Curry, ...

  21. #136
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Amir is what you hope a top 10 pick turns into after 3 seasons - he still young, he likes Toronto - he'll re-sign here - it would be stupid to trade him for a top 10 pick & no team is going to give you the top 5 pick for him that would be worth getting excited over.

    Tyler Hansbrough is someone you could consider trading for a lottery pick - but again - no good reason to bother as you'd be lucky to end up with a player as good 3 years from now - but there's no "attachment" to Toronto yet so he's a better player to trade.

    A lot of these trade "suggestions" floating around right now really come under the heading of - Why would you do that exactly? How does that make this team better? You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    I like the keep him idea
    again, another great response.

  22. #137
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Tyler Hansbrough is someone you could consider trading for a lottery pick - but again - no good reason to bother as you'd be lucky to end up with a player as good 3 years from now
    I want what you're drinking.

    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    A lot of these trade "suggestions" floating around right now really come under the heading of - Why would you do that exactly? How does that make this team better? You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    I like the keep him idea
    1) How does it make this team better?
    This team sucks. You might as well try and do something.

    2) You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    In the last 15 years
    Dirk Nowitzki (9)
    Paul Pierce (10)
    Shawn Marion (9)
    Ron Artest (16)
    Joe Johnson (10)
    Zach Randolph (19)
    Amare Stoudemire (9)
    David West (18)
    Andre Iguodala (9)
    Al Jefferson (15)
    Josh Smith (17)
    Andrew Bynum (10)
    Danny Granger (17)
    Rudy Gay (8)
    Joakim Noah (9)
    Brook Lopez (10)
    Roy Hibbert (17)
    Steph Curry (7)
    Jrue Holiday (17)
    Ty Lawson (18)
    Paul George (10)
    Eric Bledsoe (18)
    Klay Thompson (11)
    Kwahi Leonard (15)
    Andre Drummond (9)

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  24. #138
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    Quote knowledgep wrote: View Post
    Amen, if woj reports it, it's legit
    You mean like when he wrote, in January:

    "Clinging to the eighth playoff spot in the Eastern Conference, losers of six of their last seven games, the predictable calls of "blow it up" begin again now.

    Here's the reality: No one in the NBA is waiting with a fistful of talented young players and draft picks for Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. No one mortgages franchise futures for aging thirty-something stars. Yes, "let's blow it up and start over" sounds noble in theory, but mostly leaves franchises in a hazy state of disarray for years to come."

    Is it the "No one mortgages franchise futures for aging thirty-something stars" part, or the "Yes, "let's blow it up and start over" sounds noble in theory, but mostly leaves franchises in a hazy state of disarray for years to come." part that's legit, or both?

    Or would further comments from the same article convince doubters that whatever Woj says is legit:

    " Nevertheless, the financial reality of the NBA has changed the way franchises have to inspect the trading away of assets for futures. When the lottery balls don't deliver LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and Derrick Rose, rebuilding can be a long, painful and expensive process........ These Celtics owners had years of bad lottery teams and the empty luxury suites and arena seats that come with it "
    Or
    "This is a different day, a different era, a different financial landscape in the NBA. No one gives up packages of good young players and draft picks for All-Stars in the advanced stages of careers now. Those days are gone."
    Or
    ""Blow it up" sounds great on the barstool, but this is a different reality in the NBA, a different day."

    Hmmm, doesn't sound like he's got an accurate finger on the pulse of the NBA all the time, but how about his opinion on the "blow-it-up" barstool talk leading to years and years of misery most of the time?

    We gotta trust in Woj!!!

  25. #139
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    I want what you're drinking.



    1) How does it make this team better?
    This team sucks. You might as well try and do something.

    2) You're going to get a franchise changer with a late lotto pick? Really?

    In the last 15 years
    Dirk Nowitzki (9)
    Paul Pierce (10)
    Shawn Marion (9)
    Ron Artest (16)
    Joe Johnson (10)
    Zach Randolph (19)
    Amare Stoudemire (9)
    David West (18)
    Andre Iguodala (9)
    Al Jefferson (15)
    Josh Smith (17)
    Andrew Bynum (10)
    Danny Granger (17)
    Rudy Gay (8)
    Joakim Noah (9)
    Brook Lopez (10)
    Roy Hibbert (17)
    Steph Curry (7)
    Jrue Holiday (17)
    Ty Lawson (18)
    Paul George (10)
    Eric Bledsoe (18)
    Klay Thompson (11)
    Kwahi Leonard (15)
    Andre Drummond (9)
    Post of the MONTH !!!! Next we will hear that Amir is better than these guys ... Seriously, the problem with this franchise is the delusional fans ... You will never hear Laker fans come out and say Nick Young is what you hope your top 10 draft pick becomes in 3 years just because Nick Young is scoring like a man on fire in this crappy laker team now.

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  27. #140
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    So your hope for TOP 10 player in draft in 3 years is Amir Johnson ... So where are the stars of this league drafted ?? Aren't they drafted in top 10 ?? Guy like AI, Curry, ...
    Amir is better than you give him credit for, thats simply the facts my friend. A draft pick might be better in time, but you know, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

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