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Thread: DC and development of young players: bad players, bad coach or something more?

  1. #61
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I mistakenly assumed you wanted to discuss his playing time, which has been an ongoing discussion for well over a season, which is why your post was moved.

    Had I realized you actually were going for conspiracy theories, I probably would have closed the thread and moved it to the trash-bin.

    I'm democratic enough to give you a little leeway but, from the posts above mine, I think you're flying solo on this expedition!
    I stated repetitively which you ignored. The sporting news had some interesting comments from DC in September 13,2013 that looking bad suggest there has been issues between the two of them going back to last year. JV to his credit has kept his mouth shut but his body language, at times, is that of a defiant player who wants more. DC's actions show he does not have much faith in JV. Remember last year when DC played AA so much? DC seems to have more faith in veterans than younger players. I think this could be a huge issue moving forward because JV most likely will not be traded and DC will stunt his development and confidence if continues in the repetitive pattern he has done cumulatively last year and this year.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    I stated repetitively which you ignored. The sporting news had some interesting comments from DC in September 13,2013 that looking bad suggest there has been issues between the two of them going back to last year. JV to his credit has kept his mouth shut but his body language, at times, is that of a defiant player who wants more. DC's actions show he does not have much faith in JV. Remember last year when DC played AA so much? DC seems to have more faith in veterans than younger players. I think this could be a huge issue moving forward because JV most likely will not be traded and DC will stunt his development and confidence if continues in the repetitive pattern he has done cumulatively last year and this year.
    The interesting comments Casey gave to the Sporting News about JV in the Fall seem like they would be relevant in this thread.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    I stated repetitively which you ignored. The sporting news had some interesting comments from DC in September 13,2013 that looking bad suggest there has been issues between the two of them going back to last year. JV to his credit has kept his mouth shut but his body language, at times, is that of a defiant player who wants more. DC's actions show he does not have much faith in JV. Remember last year when DC played AA so much? DC seems to have more faith in veterans than younger players. I think this could be a huge issue moving forward because JV most likely will not be traded and DC will stunt his development and confidence if continues in the repetitive pattern he has done cumulatively last year and this year.
    Everything you just said has been an ongoing discussion for the past two seasons (I think that speaks to "repetitively"). Threads have been dedicated to arguing about DC's preference for veterans and the apparent mismatch between his coaching styles and rebuilding. You're acting as though this is something new and shocking that you've uncovered.

    As for whether there's a hidden, deeper issue at work, none of us have any idea since we're not in the locker room.

    What players doesn't want more playing time, rookie, sophomore, or otherwise?

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Iverson and Larry Brown? Yes.

    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Rafer Alson and Sam Mitchell? Yes.

    Is there sustained and ongoing tension between JV and Casey? No.

    Just a Coach not trusting his player, and a Player feeling like he's earned that trust.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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  6. #65
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    thats tension

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Everything you just said has been an ongoing discussion for the past two seasons (I think that speaks to "repetitively"). Threads have been dedicated to arguing about DC's preference for veterans and the apparent mismatch between his coaching styles and rebuilding. You're acting as though this is something new and shocking that you've uncovered.

    As for whether there's a hidden, deeper issue at work, none of us have any idea since we're not in the locker room.

    What players doesn't want more playing time, rookie, sophomore, or otherwise?
    Do you think DC is treating JV fairly? As most posters are pro-tank isn't best that JV gets opportunity to continue his development? Do you want to be at the same point next year with a different coach and some new players?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post

    Just a Coach not trusting his player, and a Player feeling like he's earned that trust.
    I'm not even sure it's that complicated. Honestly, I believe it's as simple as Casey not being a very good coach. He doesn't get it. Not just with JV, with everyone. The way he utilizes virtually every player on the team is sub-optimal. Why would JV be any different? It's just more noticable with JV because he's the highest profile young player.

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    There's nothing wrong... Casey's just a moron.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Iverson and Larry Brown? Yes.

    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Rafer Alson and Sam Mitchell? Yes.

    Is there sustained and ongoing tension between JV and Casey? No.

    Just a Coach not trusting his player, and a Player feeling like he's earned that trust.
    Sam Mitchell had a list on Alston's locker reminding him what to do and what not to do. The two could not co-exist. I don't want a repeat of this.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Iverson and Larry Brown? Yes.

    Was there sustained and ongoing tension between Rafer Alson and Sam Mitchell? Yes.

    Is there sustained and ongoing tension between JV and Casey? No.

    Just a Coach not trusting his player, and a Player feeling like he's earned that trust.
    I'm not sure that's true. From what I hear/read, every time Jonas is asked about his playing time issues, he always refers strongly to his need to be better, and doesn't come close to implying there's an issue with Casey. As far as the frustrated body language we're seeing often, I'd like to think JV isn't a "it's all about me" player when it comes to playing time, and that the frustration we're seeing, and interpreting differently, is him being frustrated with himself not executing what he's being taught to do. In short, I think the kid's being hard on himself, not his coach, and that's a good thing.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Do you think DC is treating JV fairly? As most posters are pro-tank isn't best that JV gets opportunity to continue his development? Do you want to be at the same point next year with a different coach and some new players?
    I think DC is a terrible coach, but I'm willing to bet he believes he's doing what's in the best interest of the Raptors to win this season. As a 'pro-tanker' in favor of a rebuild, I was worried last year with the lack of playing time being given to Valanciunas and Ross, and that has only continued this season. There's nothing unfair about it, that's just a fact of life in pro sports. I think you're reading way too much into a coaching decision.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Dec 19th, 2013 at 04:21 PM.

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  14. #72
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think DC is a terrible coach, but I'm willing to bet he believes he's doing what's in the best interest of the Raptors to win this season. As a 'pro-tanker' in favor of a rebuild, I was worried last year with the lack of playing time being given to Valanciunas and Ross, and that has only continued this season. There's nothing unfair about it, that's just a fact of life in pro sports. I think you're reading way too much into a coaching decision.
    Did you DC video on game thread from last night?

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    This is the sort of issue where I trust Ujiri has a pretty good read on it (much better than fans watching for non-verbal cues during timeouts) and would act appropriately if he felt it was a potentially explosive situation. I think MU respects Casey's authority to manage minutes, but would intervene things if he saw a deteriorating relationship. At least I would hope that would be MU's reaction to the situation. For what it's worth, my reading of JV's body language is pretty much what p00ka has said.
    tank-agnostic

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  17. #74
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Body language is so important. I'm trying to peg Jonas' recent behaviour on this graphic, but I need some help:


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    I don't think its tension its just DC being a complete idiot, he has no idea how to manage young players and develop them

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    So how many posters thought Dwayne Casey was an idiot incarnate in the previous two years and vocalized as much as is happening this year. Seriously, does one get to ascend to head coach in the NBA because he had as consistent a record of blatant game/team management errors that many of us erstwhile armchair gms and coaches can obviously detect even from our tv screens? And here is the kicker...yet he continues to enjoy the full credit and confidence (to borrow a phrase) of the chief poobah, Masai.

    Why is this so?

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    Found this at Rotoworld:
    I don’t know what these folks are expecting of a big man that hasn’t been given consistent late-game experience and has little chance of switching successfully onto a guy like Walker. It wasn’t the best challenge in the world, but you can get a sense for what JV is up against in Toronto. Enough people around the team are supportive of Casey's nitpicky approach to Valanciunas in a chicken-and-egg arrangement in which JV needs playing time to improve, but isn’t being given time because Casey is in full-on win-now mode and doesn’t believe developing Valanciunas will help.
    Source
    Not only does this make me hate Casey even more, but it makes me question, like Bendit above, where this constant slack Casey is getting is coming from.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Found this at Rotoworld:


    Not only does this make me hate Casey even more, but it makes me question, like Bendit above, where this constant slack Casey is getting is coming from.
    My guess is they recognize if he plays more, Raps win more.

    Winning is frowned upon this year.

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  24. #79
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure that's true. From what I hear/read, every time Jonas is asked about his playing time issues, he always refers strongly to his need to be better, and doesn't come close to implying there's an issue with Casey. As far as the frustrated body language we're seeing often, I'd like to think JV isn't a "it's all about me" player when it comes to playing time, and that the frustration we're seeing, and interpreting differently, is him being frustrated with himself not executing what he's being taught to do. In short, I think the kid's being hard on himself, not his coach, and that's a good thing.
    Why'll I would agree with this in many instances, there is still the case of his body language after fighting for position and not getting fed the ball (while in the exact same position where he is fed the ball early in the game). It's very discouraging to see, and doesn't look to me like a guy mad at himself for not getting deeper. He's fighting his tail off for position every possession.

    And in regards to his own comments, it would be very bad form for a young player to blame the coach for his problems; however, if he says he needs to get better, Casey needs to realize that that won't happen without the minutes.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Dec 19th, 2013 at 08:55 PM.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My guess is they recognize if he plays more, Raps win more.

    Winning is frowned upon this year.

    Ya ... Stupid Stealth Tank ... so hard to see ... and yet its right in front of us.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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