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Thread: Sound Familiar?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    First I want to stop this idea that I don't like JV. It's further from the truth. I love his potential. I'm just not the type to put any one player before the team.

    Now to get to the meaning of this thread. About 8 years ago the raptors drafted a 7 footer with huge upside. His name was Andrea Bargnani. You might of hears of them. For his first couple of years he had coach named Sam Mitchell. You might of heard of him to. During their tenure together Sam was hard on Barney not letting him get away with anything. Barney was lost a lot of times on D. Him being a big that really leaves you with no help D. Sam Mitchell kept him accountable and that kept Andrea on the bench for 2 years. Than Sam was fired cause he wouldn't play Andrea even though he would make countless mistakes on D. The rest is pretty much history.


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    [QUOTE=Chr1s1anL;263702]First I want to stop this idea that I don't like JV. It's further from the truth. I love his potential. I'm just not the type to put any one player before the team.

    Now to get to the meaning of this thread. About 8 years ago the raptors drafted a 7 footer with huge upside. His name was Andrea Bargnani. You might of hears of them. For his first couple of years he had coach named Sam Mitchell. You might of heard of him to. During their tenure together Sam was hard on Barney not letting him get away with anything. Barney was lost a lot of times on D. Him being a big that really leaves you with no help D. Sam Mitchell kept him accountable and that kept Andrea on the bench for 2 years. Than Sam was fired cause he wouldn't play Andrea even though he would make countless mistakes on D. The rest is pretty much history.
    JV already a better defender than AB will ever be. Yes JV has some trouble with some match ups but he is not a deer in headlights like AB was

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    The problem with JV is that he thinks he doesn't react. For example for that game winner last night there's no way JV should of been late for that shot. Especially since it was his man who screened Kyle and got Kemba open.


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    That's why Casey is a lame duck coach. I guess the tough love is there as well. HOWEVER, that blown help D on Walker last night has vindicated Casey a bit. JV is young and is not yet dependable in late game situations. I don't think Casey will be back regardless of whether he sticks JV in there or not. Just my 2 cents.
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    That's why Casey is a lame duck coach. I guess the tough love is there as well. HOWEVER, that blown help D on Walker last night has vindicated Casey a bit. JV is young and is not yet dependable in late game situations. I don't think Casey will be back regardless of whether he sticks JV in there or not. Just my 2 cents.
    I agree.

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    JV and Bargnani are completely different people...JV will do better the more he plays because he has a competitive drive. Bargnani just doesn't have that mentality and that's why he failed.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    The problem with JV is that he thinks he doesn't react. For example for that game winner last night there's no way JV should of been late for that shot. Especially since it was his man who screened Kyle and got Kemba open.


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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Barney is still bad at help defense (witness his play on Beal's winning shot/drive to the basket) in last game against Wizards. He wasnt even in the picture. Then he had a brain fart last night with his 3pt shot with the lead by 2 and he could have run out the clock (11 sec) or got fouled. JV did recognize his man but was just a smidgen slow and Kemba just made it over his fingers. I have been raising his xtra weight as an issue re his quickness or lack of comparatively to last year and this was another example...imo.

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    I understand where your trying to go with this but bargs and JV are 2 completely different players

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Barney is still bad at help defense (witness his play on Beal's winning shot/drive to the basket) in last game against Wizards. He wasnt even in the picture. Then he had a brain fart last night with his 3pt shot with the lead by 2 and he could have run out the clock (11 sec) or got fouled. JV did recognize his man but was just a smidgen slow and Kemba just made it over his fingers. I have been raising his xtra weight as an issue re his quickness or lack of comparatively to last year and this was another example...imo.
    All I'm saying if that's Amir. Kemba doesn't even get that shot off


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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    First I want to stop this idea that I don't like JV. It's further from the truth. I love his potential. I'm just not the type to put any one player before the team.

    Now to get to the meaning of this thread. About 8 years ago the raptors drafted a 7 footer with huge upside. His name was Andrea Bargnani. You might of hears of them. For his first couple of years he had coach named Sam Mitchell. You might of heard of him to. During their tenure together Sam was hard on Barney not letting him get away with anything. Barney was lost a lot of times on D. Him being a big that really leaves you with no help D. Sam Mitchell kept him accountable and that kept Andrea on the bench for 2 years. Than Sam was fired cause he wouldn't play Andrea even though he would make countless mistakes on D. The rest is pretty much history.


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    I have to agree with this. I am tired of sacrificing coaches for players who we think have potential. I have watched every game that Big Val played this year and he is not there yet. No need to crucify the coach. Big Val is slow on getting back on defence and on some of his post moves.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    All I'm saying if that's Amir. Kemba doesn't even get that shot off


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    It's all a learning experience man. I for one am glad he was on the court to learn from that, than to watch from the bench. Cause now he can feel accountable and try harder next game, instead of feeling like it wasn't his fault because he was on the bench.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    They're both 7 foot, european, white guys. Beyond that I don't think they have a lot in common. Bargnani was Colangeo's #1 pick and we know that BC leaned on more than one coach to keep his playing time up. Meanwhile JV gets buried on the bench during the second half every two out of three games and Casey has been accused of throwing him under the bus on in the media on more than one occasion. I don't think their situations are comparable. As far as we know, Valanciunas is just another player on the roster that Ujiri is evaluating. He's not getting any special treatment, that's for sure.

    It's like when posters used to throw Calderon and Bargnani in the same category. Colangelo publicly traded Jose once to the Bobcats, brought in 4 different guys to take his job and had him on the block for three straight years while Bargnani remained bulletproof in BC's eyes. Just because two guys are both European doesn't mean they're the same guy.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Dec 19th, 2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    All I'm saying if that's Amir. Kemba doesn't even get that shot off


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    This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that you're assuming Amir automatically makes this play, there are other things that were wrong with what actually happened.

    -First of all, and most importantly, if there's one time where Casey should be worried about Jonas not being his quickest player, it should be when there's 1 second left and the opposing team is forced to shoot a buzzer beater. They weren't going to dump it in to Al Jefferson in the post with a second left. From a coaching perspective, this is the worst situation to have Jonas in. So even giving you the fact that Jonas didn't do the best job, Casey put him in that position despite not realizing that the best reason to have Jonas on the floor, which is covering Al Jefferson, was totally pointless. I'm sure I'm not the only huge Jonas fan who was puzzled as hell as to why Casey didn't put his quickest players on the floor, say Amir and 4 perimeter guys for example. They didn't have time for a post play, Jefferson isn't useful for alley-oops or tip-ins, and there was no time for a rebound. Shitty coaching decision. **And if Casey was so worried about Jefferson that he felt he had to have Jonas in, even if it's not the likeliest play, then Jonas' presence was essential to him, as he probably felt anyone else would've been pushed right under the basket by Al and maybe give up an even easier shot.

    -Second, Lowry didn't fight through the play AT ALL. It's been a bad trend with Lowry, DeMar, and Gay before he was traded. They play screens weakly and expect the big man to cover their ass every time. That's also unacceptable, because if the guard had been sticking to Walker and fighting harder, maybe they're not able to make that play anyway because the pass seems too tight to squeeze.

    -Thirdly, given Jonas' inexperience, Lowry, an experienced player and supposedly strong defender, should be screaming that switch as soon as he sees the screen. I don't know if he did. None of us do. If he didn't, it's just as much Lowry's fault as it is Jonas. If it's someone like Garnett (since we're allowed to randomly speculate), you know he's calling that out and making sure his teammate is aware. Lowry didn't even look like he cared about the play, so I really do question both his effort and communication.

    There are 4 other teammates on the floor responsible for helping on D (even if just through communication), and a coach responsible for making the best decisions to put the team in a position to win. You're pinning the loss on one guy for one play where he was a split second late, despite the fact that there were a considerable amount of errors made by everyone else during the game, especially in the quarter and a half where Jonas was on the bench (where the team coughed up a lead very quickly, and where the coach made inexplicably poor decisions). You gotta stop throwing Jonas under the bus.

    *I mean, I don't see you criticizing DeMar for missing a crucial free throw despite being an 80% ft shooter. Or for finishing the game 3-10 after starting 8-16. Or again, Lowry for his poor defensive effort on Kemba for much of the game. Or Vasquez, our new pass-first PG, for absolutely destroying our offensive flow with several poor shots during his second half stint on the court. Or Ross, for putting up a terrible dud of a game in general on both ends.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Dec 20th, 2013 at 12:58 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I don't get it. None of what you say justifies not letting JV play.
    JV should be playing all the minutes he can physically handle because how else will he learn?
    Absolutely nothing justifies playing Patrick Patterson more minutes than Jonas. Nothing. Especially when the team just loses the game anyways.
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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    People who think JV is at fault for that play are mental. Every single thing about Casey's set up was wrong.

    Nice of him to throw JV under the bus, though. That's twice now, by my count.

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    Completely the same






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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I don't get it. None of what you say justifies not letting JV play.
    JV should be playing all the minutes he can physically handle because how else will he learn?
    Absolutely nothing justifies playing Patrick Patterson more minutes than Jonas. Nothing. Especially when the team just loses the game anyways.
    Boom!

    As long as JV is playing hard and within the team he should be getting as many minutes as he can handle.

    Newsflash: this team is awful and is going nowhere without growth from its players. Growth doesn't happen stapled to the bench.
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    A 21 year old big struggling with help D? sounds familiar to the whole league

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    I've re-watched the play several times now.

    I agree with WMCJ's comments about the line-up sent out there. Patterson, JV, Lowry, DD and Salmons? Patterson on the in-bounder makes some sense, but why not have JV there? Where's Landry Fields? Where's Ross? Where's Amir? Salmons isn't exactly the fleetest of foot or known for defence. Weird line-up.

    I would have expected a line-up of JV on inbounder, Amir on Al Jeff, DD/Fields on Kemba (height advantage to disrupt the shot). DD/Fields on Henderson and Lowry on the weak side winger (can't see the name or number). If you are Charlotte, your shot choices are likely Kemba, Henderson, Jefferson in that order. You need to defend in that order too. Not enough time for anything fancy, so just guard the catch and shoot.

    The execution on the screen wasn't fantastic by the Raps (obviously). First, Patterson shouldn't have left his feet on the pass. He is tall enough to make the pass difficult without jumping. All he has to do is prevent a direct line pass. With his arms up, McRoberts would have had to put a bit of lob on the pass to hit Kemba at the top of the key, which would have been a split second delay, hopefully enough to allow Kemba's man (Lowry in this case) to close the gap. Because Patterson jumps, he takes himself out of position for the easy direct bounce pass to the corner.

    At the point of contact, JV should have flashed out to at least get in Kemba's path, and the weak side winger (in this case DD and Salmons) would slide over, with DD taking Al Jeff in case of alley-oop (however unlikely with Al Jeff). JV can see the screen coming and needs to get out at top of the key, forcing Kemba to cut further towards the sideline but at a higher angle which would have resulted in Kemba being open at the 3 pt arc on the wing near the timeline. If this was the case, Kemba's momentum would have been carrying him away from the basket and towards the inbounder; a much more difficult catch and shoot situation.

    Lowry lets up on his pursuit before Kemba even catches the ball. With the game on the line, you gotta fight to that spot no matter what. Even a defender coming late out of the corner of Kemba's vision could have been enough to disrupt the shot (although Kemba is a fairly clutch player).

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