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Thread: Sound Familiar?

  1. #21
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    I agree with WhiteMen... this is ridiculous. We keep saying that we want our young guys to get experience and LEARN. What better way to learn than to actually be in that situation, make a mistake, experience the consequence, and watch it on game tape?


    Yeah, Casey put out a messed up lineup... really, does that surprise us? Despite that, I agree with the OP on one point: Val was at fault on that play. On last-shot plays, aren't defenders are supposed to switch every screen? Val didn't switch in time.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I don't get it. None of what you say justifies not letting JV play.
    JV should be playing all the minutes he can physically handle because how else will he learn?
    Absolutely nothing justifies playing Patrick Patterson more minutes than Jonas. Nothing. Especially when the team just loses the game anyways.
    LOL, oh man that was hilarious!! It's like you think the coaches priority is to sacrafice wins to get JV more experience. You and I and everyone else at the forum that doesn't care much for where this season is headed may want to see JV get minutes, but you must realize the coach has an agenda which includes winning first right?

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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    I agree with WhiteMen... this is ridiculous. We keep saying that we want our young guys to get experience and LEARN. What better way to learn than to actually be in that situation, make a mistake, experience the consequence, and watch it on game tape?


    Yeah, Casey put out a messed up lineup... really, does that surprise us? Despite that, I agree with the OP on one point: Val was at fault on that play. On last-shot plays, aren't defenders are supposed to switch every screen? Val didn't switch in time.
    And that loss is perfect for the tank because of that. Our young guy learns something, and we lose.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    LOL, oh man that was hilarious!! It's like you think the coaches priority is to sacrafice wins to get JV more experience. You and I and everyone else at the forum that doesn't care much for where this season is headed may want to see JV get minutes, but you must realize the coach has an agenda which includes winning first right?
    This is not always the case.

    MU and DC both know very well that the coach is being judged on his ability to develop players this year. They even came out and announced it to the media.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Boom!

    As long as JV is playing hard and within the team he should be getting as many minutes as he can handle.

    Newsflash: this team is awful and is going nowhere without growth from its players. Growth doesn't happen stapled to the bench.
    If fans' agendas came first then you would be spot on. Unfortunately tanking is limited to management and fans only.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    If fans' agendas came first then you would be spot on. Unfortunately tanking is limited to management and fans only.
    See my other post. Tanking and player development are two very different things.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    I agree with WhiteMen... this is ridiculous. We keep saying that we want our young guys to get experience and LEARN. What better way to learn than to actually be in that situation, make a mistake, experience the consequence, and watch it on game tape?


    Yeah, Casey put out a messed up lineup... really, does that surprise us? Despite that, I agree with the OP on one point: Val was at fault on that play. On last-shot plays, aren't defenders are supposed to switch every screen? Val didn't switch in time.
    Not necessarily. Switching is a team by team, situation by situation basis. As I said in my post, JV should have hedged the screen and forced Kemba to take a different angle, but switching isn't necessarily the plan. If JV hedges properly, then Kemba catches the ball near the timeline and Lowry would have had more time to get back on him, with Kemba moving away from the hoop, a significantly more difficult shot. As a result, Kemba basically got a warm up jumper.

  10. #28
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    This is not always the case.

    MU and DC both know very well that the coach is being judged on his ability to develop players this year. They even came out and announced it to the media.
    You can't seriously think that they place player development over wins do you? The coaches job first and foremost is to put the team in the best position to win games. Regardless of where the season is headed that is always the mandate.

    I think Casey has done a pretty good job with player development as well. Bargnani had his best year under Casey, Amir, DeMar are both flourishing under Casey as well. True he doesn't play JV and Ross as much as we would like, but again, it's about placing his team in the best position to win, not for young players to develop.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    If fans' agendas came first then you would be spot on. Unfortunately tanking is limited to management and fans only.
    Prior to OT JV had held Jefferson to to 5-12 shooting and at 5:31 in the 3rd when JV left the game the Raptors were up 65-53.

    I disagree that JV should be on the bench given his impact on the game, the importance of his development, and the steaming pile of dung this team is at this point in time.
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  13. #30
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    See my other post. Tanking and player development are two very different things.
    I agree tanking and player development are two very different things, but if you are putting more emphasis on player development over trying to win games then tanking may as well be your agenda.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Not necessarily. Switching is a team by team, situation by situation basis. As I said in my post, JV should have hedged the screen and forced Kemba to take a different angle, but switching isn't necessarily the plan. If JV hedges properly, then Kemba catches the ball near the timeline and Lowry would have had more time to get back on him, with Kemba moving away from the hoop, a significantly more difficult shot. As a result, Kemba basically got a warm up jumper.
    I'm not sure about that. He was fading while taking a shot mere inches over Val's hand.



    (starts at 2:35)

    I thought the worst part of the play was that Lowry gave up on it, but for the most part it was just a great shot by Walker.

  15. #32
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You can't seriously think that they place player development over wins do you? The coaches job first and foremost is to put the team in the best position to win games. Regardless of where the season is headed that is always the mandate.

    I think Casey has done a pretty good job with player development as well. Bargnani had his best year under Casey, Amir, DeMar are both flourishing under Casey as well. True he doesn't play JV and Ross as much as we would like, but again, it's about placing his team in the best position to win, not for young players to develop.
    I can't find the quote now but a month or two ago, Masai Ujiri made it very clear that Dwane Casey would be judged on his ability to develop players when considering a contract extension.

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  17. #33
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    LOL, oh man that was hilarious!! It's like you think the coaches priority is to sacrafice wins to get JV more experience. You and I and everyone else at the forum that doesn't care much for where this season is headed may want to see JV get minutes, but you must realize the coach has an agenda which includes winning first right?
    on no planet, including this one, is JV, deficiencies and all, a worse basketball player, in any way/shape/form, than patrick patterson. if what you're saying is true, and that the coach's primary motive is to win, then you accomplish that by having your best players on the floor as much as possible. and whether you're ready to accept it or not, JV is one of the team's best players already, despite his shortcomings. this league is about reps...you get better by playing, not sitting & watching & thinking. playing. PLAYING.

    i'm not going to speculate (too much) on the allocation of minutes. i assume it's partly to enforce a 'tough love' approach with JV, while also showcasing some of the newer guys in the hope that their respective trade value is increased. the tank-nation GI in me hopes that casey is either in on the tank, or that he's so incompetent, him trying to win games by coaching at his 'best' is just enough to pull off a nice little clandestine tank job.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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  19. #34
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    ...You might of hears of them. For his first couple of years he had coach named Sam Mitchell. You might of heard of him to. During their tenure together Sam was hard on Barney not letting him get away with anything. Barney was lost a lot of times on D. Him being a big that really leaves you with no help D. Sam Mitchell kept him accountable and that kept Andrea on the bench for 2 years. Than Sam was fired cause he wouldn't play Andrea even though he would make countless mistakes on D. The rest is pretty much history. [/URL]
    ok, first off, it's 'have,' not 'of,' as in 'you might have hears (sic) of them.'

    now that that's out of the way, yes, JV's defense has left something to be desired. if, however, you're equating andrea bargnani's approach to D (it was his rebounding that put him in smitch's doghouse as much, if not more than, his overall D, btw), then i think you're running off into an area that's really kind of unsubstantiated. yes, JV's currently a below avearge defender.

    bargnani was bad. B.A.D. BBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDD

    there is a difference.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  20. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure about that. He was fading while taking a shot mere inches over Val's hand.



    (starts at 2:35)

    I thought the worst part of the play was that Lowry gave up on it, but for the most part it was just a great shot by Walker.
    I'm honestly not sure what point you're "not sure about". If JV hedges, then it's a completely different shot (different location, different momentum, different inbounds pass, different timing). JV was late on the pressure and it left Kemba with a wide open lane to an easy catch and shot. Watch warm-ups (from any team) and you'll see the exact same shot from half the players.

  21. #36
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that you're assuming Amir automatically makes this play, there are other things that were wrong with what actually happened.

    -First of all, and most importantly, if there's one time where Casey should be worried about Jonas not being his quickest player, it should be when there's 1 second left and the opposing team is forced to shoot a buzzer beater. They weren't going to dump it in to Al Jefferson in the post with a second left. From a coaching perspective, this is the worst situation to have Jonas in. So even giving you the fact that Jonas didn't do the best job, Casey put him in that position despite not realizing that the best reason to have Jonas on the floor, which is covering Al Jefferson, was totally pointless. I'm sure I'm not the only huge Jonas fan who was puzzled as hell as to why Casey didn't put his quickest players on the floor, say Amir and 4 perimeter guys for example. They didn't have time for a post play, Jefferson isn't useful for alley-oops or tip-ins, and there was no time for a rebound. Shitty coaching decision. **And if Casey was so worried about Jefferson that he felt he had to have Jonas in, even if it's not the likeliest play, then Jonas' presence was essential to him, as he probably felt anyone else would've been pushed right under the basket by Al and maybe give up an even easier shot.

    -Second, Lowry didn't fight through the play AT ALL. It's been a bad trend with Lowry, DeMar, and Gay before he was traded. They play screens weakly and expect the big man to cover their ass every time. That's also unacceptable, because if the guard had been sticking to Walker and fighting harder, maybe they're not able to make that play anyway because the pass seems too tight to squeeze.

    -Thirdly, given Jonas' inexperience, Lowry, an experienced player and supposedly strong defender, should be screaming that switch as soon as he sees the screen. I don't know if he did. None of us do. If he didn't, it's just as much Lowry's fault as it is Jonas. If it's someone like Garnett (since we're allowed to randomly speculate), you know he's calling that out and making sure his teammate is aware. Lowry didn't even look like he cared about the play, so I really do question both his effort and communication.

    There are 4 other teammates on the floor responsible for helping on D (even if just through communication), and a coach responsible for making the best decisions to put the team in a position to win. You're pinning the loss on one guy for one play where he was a split second late, despite the fact that there were a considerable amount of errors made by everyone else during the game, especially in the quarter and a half where Jonas was on the bench (where the team coughed up a lead very quickly, and where the coach made inexplicably poor decisions). You gotta stop throwing Jonas under the bus.

    *I mean, I don't see you criticizing DeMar for missing a crucial free throw despite being an 80% ft shooter. Or for finishing the game 3-10 after starting 8-16. Or again, Lowry for his poor defensive effort on Kemba for much of the game. Or Vasquez, our new pass-first PG, for absolutely destroying our offensive flow with several poor shots during his second half stint on the court. Or Ross, for putting up a terrible dud of a game in general on both ends.
    I agree with this. further to this, you can make an argument that they were expecting that ball to get pounded into the paint, and I would bet JV was told to stay home on that inbound play and not get caught chasing, therefore leaving an easy two inside.

    Centers are not expected to guard the paint and then simply "pop" out to close out on a 3 point shooter with super efficiency. Guys saying he is slow, or wasn't thinking....perhaps a tiny bit from column a, a bit from column, but read that play.

    Its always a fans first inclination to give ZERO credit to the other team, that was a really nice play to free Kemba up coming through the high post screen. Lowry didn't read it well and got crunched because Jefferson rolled off the screen nicely and pushed Lowry, a borderline O-foul but not enough to get the whistle. JV actually covered a massive amount of ground chasing Kemba to the corner, and missed blocking the shot by about 8 inches... he makes that last 8 inches, you guys are all applauding how much hustle he showed. And again, nice play by Charlotte, but I will say this my own personal thoughts on guarding the guy inbounding the ball, you have to know who he is, and McRoberts isn't jacking it up from 26 feet, #54 for the Raps, patterson maybe? Should have backed off just enough to mix it up with Walker there... I don't know how many of you agree, I just always like getting in lanes and disrupting....sometimes it makes sense not to guard the inbounds guy at all so you have a guy to pick up guys off screens....again, easy to say after, but it makes sense.

    What remains for me, is that JV is young, and I hope he gets a bit faster, but this play, this ain't on him, not enough to draw any conclusion or criticism at all.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    the tank-nation GI in me hopes that casey is either in on the tank, or that he's so incompetent, him trying to win games by coaching at his 'best' is just enough to pull off a nice little clandestine tank job.
    Shhhhh.

  23. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Its always a fans first inclination to give ZERO credit to the other team, that was a really nice play to free Kemba up coming through the high post screen. Lowry didn't read it well and got crunched because Jefferson rolled off the screen nicely and pushed Lowry, a borderline O-foul but not enough to get the whistle. JV actually covered a massive amount of ground chasing Kemba to the corner, and missed blocking the shot by about 8 inches... he makes that last 8 inches, you guys are all applauding how much hustle he showed. And again, nice play by Charlotte, but I will say this my own personal thoughts on guarding the guy inbounding the ball, you have to know who he is, and McRoberts isn't jacking it up from 26 feet, #54 for the Raps, patterson maybe? Should have backed off just enough to mix it up with Walker there... I don't know how many of you agree, I just always like getting in lanes and disrupting....sometimes it makes sense not to guard the inbounds guy at all so you have a guy to pick up guys off screens....again, easy to say after, but it makes sense.
    On the bold, in this situation, I think I prefer the tight coverage on the inbounds. There isn't much time on the clock, so disrupting the passing angle is a big priority. If Patterson drops back into "coverage", how much space is he likely to be able to stay with Kemba? And if he follows Kemba, then it just opens up an even easier passing lane for Henderson using the same Jefferson screen at the top. Or Patterson ends up in no man's land and isn't really disrupting either.

    I think forcing the passer to get it over Patterson would have slowed the ball enough that the defender can close better. Give JV an extra 0.5 seconds and maybe he erases those 8 inches.

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  25. #39
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    maybe...like I said, its a preference. there are different ways to guard plays..... my theory works with the no times aspect as well, as there isnt enough time to get a return to McRoberts and a good look, so you should be able to limit good entries with switches and an extra man if your big stays home....

    easy for us to say i guess.... nice play though, Kemba to be honest, just showed the Raptors how to rub off a scree correctly.

    good Basketball

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that you're assuming Amir automatically makes this play, there are other things that were wrong with what actually happened.

    -First of all, and most importantly, if there's one time where Casey should be worried about Jonas not being his quickest player, it should be when there's 1 second left and the opposing team is forced to shoot a buzzer beater. They weren't going to dump it in to Al Jefferson in the post with a second left. From a coaching perspective, this is the worst situation to have Jonas in. So even giving you the fact that Jonas didn't do the best job, Casey put him in that position despite not realizing that the best reason to have Jonas on the floor, which is covering Al Jefferson, was totally pointless. I'm sure I'm not the only huge Jonas fan who was puzzled as hell as to why Casey didn't put his quickest players on the floor, say Amir and 4 perimeter guys for example. They didn't have time for a post play, Jefferson isn't useful for alley-oops or tip-ins, and there was no time for a rebound. Shitty coaching decision. **And if Casey was so worried about Jefferson that he felt he had to have Jonas in, even if it's not the likeliest play, then Jonas' presence was essential to him, as he probably felt anyone else would've been pushed right under the basket by Al and maybe give up an even easier shot.

    -Second, Lowry didn't fight through the play AT ALL. It's been a bad trend with Lowry, DeMar, and Gay before he was traded. They play screens weakly and expect the big man to cover their ass every time. That's also unacceptable, because if the guard had been sticking to Walker and fighting harder, maybe they're not able to make that play anyway because the pass seems too tight to squeeze.

    -Thirdly, given Jonas' inexperience, Lowry, an experienced player and supposedly strong defender, should be screaming that switch as soon as he sees the screen. I don't know if he did. None of us do. If he didn't, it's just as much Lowry's fault as it is Jonas. If it's someone like Garnett (since we're allowed to randomly speculate), you know he's calling that out and making sure his teammate is aware. Lowry didn't even look like he cared about the play, so I really do question both his effort and communication.

    There are 4 other teammates on the floor responsible for helping on D (even if just through communication), and a coach responsible for making the best decisions to put the team in a position to win. You're pinning the loss on one guy for one play where he was a split second late, despite the fact that there were a considerable amount of errors made by everyone else during the game, especially in the quarter and a half where Jonas was on the bench (where the team coughed up a lead very quickly, and where the coach made inexplicably poor decisions). You gotta stop throwing Jonas under the bus.

    *I mean, I don't see you criticizing DeMar for missing a crucial free throw despite being an 80% ft shooter. Or for finishing the game 3-10 after starting 8-16. Or again, Lowry for his poor defensive effort on Kemba for much of the game. Or Vasquez, our new pass-first PG, for absolutely destroying our offensive flow with several poor shots during his second half stint on the court. Or Ross, for putting up a terrible dud of a game in general on both ends.
    Agree with everything in this post except the bolded. It's not Lowry's switch to call. It's JVs. JV has to communicate that screen and call the switch (which should be obvious with 1 second left). Either way, glad he was on the floor to experience that misstep. Will only make him better.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

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