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Thread: Are we really tanking now ?

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Sitting Ideal at this crutial time is sign a weakness and confusion and lack of direction.
    Or it could mean that he doesn't have a self-imposed deadline, or he hasn't heard an offer he likes yet.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    I'm standing by what I said before. Masai is going to try to recreate Denver. He wants to create an all around team. No superstars. Just a deep, energy filled, hard working team.
    "Masai WILL win us a championship"
    - Tim Leiweke

    Ujiri: "One thing I can say for sure is that we will not be stuck in the middle."

    Reporter: "How can you say that?"

    Ujiri: "Because I can say that."

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    He made it clear that he wants to tank? because of what? because he traded Rudy Gay??
    Because he said he wants the team to either finish near the top or near the bottom. Which do you think is more likely?

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote KazanTheMan wrote: View Post
    I'm standing by what I said before. Masai is going to try to recreate Denver. He wants to create an all around team. No superstars. Just a deep, energy filled, hard working team.
    That doesn't sound like the championship aspirations his boss is aiming for.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #125
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Because he said he wants the team to either finish near the top or near the bottom. Which do you think is more likely?
    I can see them finishing 3rd in the East if they win the Atlantic. Which is very possible.

    This team is too good to finish near the bottom.

    So to answer your question, i say near the top.
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  6. #126
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    I can see them finishing 3rd in the East if they win the Atlantic. Which is very possible.

    This team is too good to finish near the bottom.

    So to answer your question, i say near the top.
    Fair enough. I actually kind of agree with you in a way, because the way the roster is set up right now and the way the conference is, it's very possible that this roster can get a decent seed in the playoffs. But the fact that multiple sources tell us that Lowry and Derozan were made available, makes me think Ujiri is thinking of finishing near the bottom instead. Sure, this team could make some noise this year, but that isn't what The Messiah is getting paid for IMO

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Or it could mean that he doesn't have a self-imposed deadline, or he hasn't heard an offer he likes yet.
    That is true but as I said, there is always a "COST" to not making a move if the purpose is to tank How many times did we hear this from the GM os Toronto over the years that the extra few meaningless wins really hurt us with our positioning in the draft !!!

    He can very well not having a deadline or ... but he has to know what direction he wants to go. Right now, this team is wining and will continue to win. I just hope he does want to compete now because otherwise , he is just shooting himself in the leg and seeing the lottery balls drop by each win.

  8. #128
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    I can see them finishing 3rd in the East if they win the Atlantic. Which is very possible.

    This team is too good to finish near the bottom.

    So to answer your question, i say near the top.

    That is very TRUE. This team is the best 3rd team in the east now and will improve even more ... small few trades here and there and we can see them make a deep push toward the play off.

    If MU thinks this team is constructed to tank, then he is sadly mistaking.

  9. #129
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    he never explicitly said that we were tanking. He said we will NOT be a treadmill team...and followed it with the Rudy Gay trade...which made us better

    Until Lowry and Amir go we can't be certain of what our direction is.

    What we do know based on everything Masai has done to this point is that he wants almost zero long term commitments, which suggests a roster in flux if not outright tank

  10. #130
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    I actually think he's more focused on clearing cap space and accumulating assets right now. He wants a young team with cap space, which allows trades, signings, and possible draft picks. Doesn't have to be considered tanking

  11. #131
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    he never explicitly said that we were tanking. He said we will NOT be a treadmill team...and followed it with the Rudy Gay trade...which made us better

    Until Lowry and Amir go we can't be certain of what our direction is.

    What we do know based on everything Masai has done to this point is that he wants almost zero long term commitments, which suggests a roster in flux if not outright tank
    We're still a treadmill team though. Not good enough to reach the conference finals, and not terrible enough for a top pick.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    We're still a treadmill team though. Not good enough to reach the conference finals, and not terrible enough for a top pick.
    Whose expectations were that he was going to turn it all around in a few months? Who expected BC type knee-jerk actions? Just because some interpreted that his "no treadmill" dedication to mean he was going to tank hard this year, and shoot for draft lottery luck, doesn't make it true. Knee jerk actions to tank are no better than knee jerk actions to shoot for the moon. That may be sad for some, but that's life.

    From day one he has said his goals are very high. He also said he was going to be patient, evaluate, and make moves to make the team better, with long term in mind. Nothing he has done goes against what he said he'd do, and he has clearly won both trades he has made. Whatever path he ultimately decides upon, it seems clear he isn't dumping anybody unless it benefits the Raptors, whether that satisfies the tankers or not, and he needs willing trade partners to do anything.

  13. #133
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    Prior to the Dec 15 deadline, I was thinking that Masai's direction would likely be toward blowing the team up, not because of the overall record, but because of the lack of signature wins... the only early season win that looked big at the time was the Memphis game, which has turned out to be less impressive as the Grizz sink out of the playoff race. To me, signature wins are one key indicator of upside for a team.
    But since the Gay trade, we've seen two signature wins. Can they get one more either tonight or during the early January grind (Indiana, @Miami, @Indiana)? At this point I'd wait until after January 8th to make a decision on what the potential is for the current group. After that, the schedule turns and it'll be hard to evaluate upside of this team against weaker opponents. One signature win could be an aberration. A pattern of signature wins and signature losses, like the Portland OT game, paint an interesting picture of what this group is capable of. (I wouldn't count the Houston game as a signature loss, that game was just a bizarro anomaly that doesn't deserve to be included in any sort of analysis beyond being a folkloric tale of the Rudy Gay era.)

    If I was Ujiri this wouldn't be enough to change my mind about the team yet. But with everyone's trade value rising, I'd be patient about seeing how these patterns play out over the next 2 weeks. That'll give a sample of 7 games against winning teams, including 6 games against teams with a .750 or better winning percentage. Those seven games will give a solid sample to tell just where this team is at.
    tank-agnostic

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  15. #134
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    Big Al is out in Atlanta Indefinitely ... Are we the best 3rd team in the EAST NOW !!!

    Few Small trades and upgrades here and there and we are the in our way to one of the best season's in the Raptor History.

  16. #135
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Big Al is out in Atlanta Indefinitely ... Are we the best 3rd team in the EAST NOW !!!

    Few Small trades and upgrades here and there and we are the in our way to one of the best season's in the Raptor History.
    You can't be serious..
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    You can't be serious..
    Yes, in terms of play off performance ...

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    NY went down too. Are you a believer now ??

  19. #138
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    Someone mentioned this article on Fan 590 when talking about the Raps -- Reading it, it's really flawed. Can one of the hardcore numbers people on this site dive into the numbers a bit deeper? It would be interesting to add statistics to this debate.

    In sum, nearly 90 percent of teams that win 25 or fewer games are not contenders five years later. This suggests that “tanking” is a strategy that is very unlikely to lead to NBA success.
    http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/29/l...gy-in-the-nba/

  20. #139
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    If this is what he is planing that he is doing really bad job. This team is wining and will win more if no changes are made. Trading one of these guys: Lowry, DD and Amir will end these wins. However, the more MU waits, the more wins these guys will have and the less lottery balls we will have in the next draft. It is as simple as this.

    I know we all decided to give MU time to evaluate this team at the beginning of this season which was quite fair. However, time has ran out on the man and he needs to make his moves NOW and choose a side. Are you tanking? Are you going to seriously compete? Either of these roads require us to make some serious moves.

    Sitting Ideal at this crutial time is sign a weakness and confusion and lack of direction.
    Lottery balls -- therein lies the potential flaw of tanking

  21. #140
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Someone mentioned this article on Fan 590 when talking about the Raps -- Reading it, it's really flawed. Can one of the hardcore numbers people on this site dive into the numbers a bit deeper? It would be interesting to add statistics to this debate.



    http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/29/l...gy-in-the-nba/
    Well, only one team can win the lottery in a given year, and not every draft pick will pan out. Obviously if you tank and either don't get that one guy in the draft, you've gained nothing.

    Also, being at 34-49 wins is not indicative of mediocrity if the team has already torn-down and rebuilt around young, high upside prospects, which the article doesn't distinguish. As well, the difference between 49 and 54 wins is probably a bit flukey, so that's another confounder I guess.

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