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Thread: Raps espn article

  1. #101
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    LOL, why bother writing a novel in response to a guy you know has blocked you?

    It's almost like you enjoy arguing......but nah, that can't be it.
    Oh, I don't know. Perhaps for people that are reading? Doh, it's a forum, not a bunch of IMs. You seemed to have enjoyed it. Now, have you anything relevant to say about the comments, or that which I commented on, or just thought you weasel in and contribute nothing but cheap snide remarks?

  2. #102
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    The one thing about this article i did not understand was why would the raptors trade Ross for Afflalo....? lool

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  4. #103
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I don't understand why people think Demar is no good without the ball, and that he can only be 'effective' with the ball in his hands. Demar's best stretch this season was when Rudy was here and he was playing off the ball more. More catch and shoots, especially in the corner, and when he did create for himself it was more often in the post.

    He is actually much better and a more efficient and impactful player when he plays off the ball. The Raps lost when Demar played his best was because, IMO, because Rudy was the first option, and he completely sucked in that role, while Demar was more suited to that secondary role than the primary role he is in now. Furthermore, and more importantly, while Rudy was here neither JV, Amir, Lowry, or even Ross were engaged and playing well, which probably had more impact on the teams success than Demar's individual performances. Remove Rudy, and now the ball moves around the court and all our starters have stepped up to play hard, engaged basketball. Amir and JV are no longer just perimeter screeners, they are actually involved more in the offense and getting touches, and as such as playing better.

    the difference here is night and day, and that was on Rudy's shoulders. He was the inefficient chucking black hole, and thank the lord he is gone. Now we got some interesting basketball to watch.

    Nonetheless, Demar is now back into that primary scoring role, which most of us know isn't the best option for Demar. As such, his shot selection and efficiency have dropped. I think Nosike's point is a valid one. Although it may be his choice, as Matt said, to take some of those inefficient 2's, he is the guy that is expected to take those on this team, not Ross, Amir, JV, Salmons. Lowry is the only other option, and if he did more of that, his percentages would suffer as well. At times, someone on the team is going to have to take the tough shot, and that burden is on Demar.

    I think he should get back to posting up more. no doubt he gets doubled, and this would help open things up more for others. He would be more effective creating for others in the post than off the dribble IMO. And I also think he needs to use his screens better (when he has the ball). Too often he seems to think of them as a decoy and then just takes a step to the side for a long two. Step back for three or use the screen to drive to the basket or a pull up within 15 ft is even ok. This is just what I see, I have no lovely stats to back any of this up.

    Demar is not gonna be an efficient player as the number one offensive option, but playing off the ball he can be very good.
    First up, thanks for the civil discussion Jaws. I respect the other opinions presented on DeRozan. It is just nice reading counter points that avoid personal jabs and sarcastic undertones.... cheers to you.

    Bold 1: I agree that was DeMar's best stretch of the season. However, it was also the Raptors worst. Was it Rudy? Was it coaching? I'm not sure. But even though he played off the ball it was within the context of "my turn, your turn" basketball. But even if he has been so successful shooting in the corners and posting up during that time, where is it gone since Rudy left? You raise some really good points on Gay. I'm not sure what the answers are to be honest. I don't agree with any comparison of DeRozan to Bargnani for obvious reasons: DeRozan cares A LOT and puts the work in. However they are both inefficient volume shooters and I wonder if Bargnani's amazing 13 game stretch is in any way comparable to DeRozan's stretch of extremely efficient scoring earlier this season.

    Bold 2: I agree - even without the lovely stats.


    Your last line is what worries me. Making the assumption he can play off the ball and be very good, can his individual success lead to team success? The times we've seen a healthy Bargnani and Gay says no (granted they are incredibly flawed first options). At the end of the day it is the team success that is what matters as I"m sure anyone other than the biggest 'DD fanboy' (not a dig at anyone here, in particular) would agree. The other aspects he brings to the game are still very much average at best and if he isn't scoring, what is he doing? The second reason for worry is, assuming DD is not the #1 option, how do you get the #1 option? He is likely one of those players good enough to keep you stuck in the middle so the draft is out, free agency is out because he is not the type of talent to attract another star, so that leaves the trade route - but what do you give up if you are building through the draft? Draft picks are out. Only real tradable assets Raptors have are Lowry, Amir, DeRozan, JV, and Ross.... basically their core.


    This leads me to look at the teams in the league currently over .500. All those teams are led by incredibly dynamic and efficient players:

    OKC - Durant/Westbrook
    Indiana - George
    Miami - LBJ/Wade/Bosh
    San Antonio - Parker/Manu/Duncan
    Portland - Lillard/Aldridge
    Clippers - Griffin/Paul
    Houston - Harden
    Phoenix - Dragic/Beldsoe
    Golden State - Curry
    Dallas - Dirk
    Atlanta - Millsap/Horford


    When you look at those teams, you also have multiple dynamic and efficient players as 2nd and 3rd options. I don't think you can call DeRozan dynamic and the efficiency is still an unknown, in my opinion. I only see p00ka's comments when someone else replies with quote to him. I see he is going on and on about the "he is what he is comments" and to some extent rightfully so. However stats nor the eye test do not back up the claims he has added a whole new level to his game. The reality is he is still an inefficient volume shooter - maybe even a little bit worse when it comes to efficiency - who has brought his assisting others up to about average and improved getting to the line (likely strength improvement). But I've always said stats are not the be all and end all. There is no question he carries himself with more confidence and his increased strength/maturity has had a positive impact on his game. I'm pleasantly surprised by that growth. In that sense, I have no problem admitting I was wrong. Contrary to some people's posts here, one can't be right about everything. I've never claimed to be right about everything. I give opinions with the rationale behind them - if you agree great, if you disagree I look forward to a rational counter argument. I've been wrong before, I am wrong about DeRozan "is what he is" to some extent but the inefficient volume shooter remains fully intact, and *newsflash* I'll likely be wrong about stuff in the future. *Warning: Shameless pat on the back coming* Around these parts I think that makes me a real minority. I've yet to see any of these posters claiming the greatness that is DeRozan back it up with anything other than their opinions passed as fact. I'm still with OldSkool waiting for a post that logically proves how good DeRozan actually is. When others were boasting his great rebounding/passing/shooting pre-Gay trade, my counter has always been give it time because he has shown incredible stretches in the past. Consistency has been and continues to be his issue. I don't see the need to wait for the previously mentioned 40 games for this very reason. He has already had an 8-10 cold streak, an 8-10 game hot streak, and another 10 game cold streak. The consistency is not there.



    I have not wavered in my opinion of tanking... that is probably an issue overall with me. There are many ways to build a team but the Raptors - even with DeRozan - are still faced with lacking the elite talent needed to win. You can find that talent anywhere in the draft but the probabilities are highest at the top. Free agency is not going to happen until the roster has talent that other talent wants to play with. I don't think DeRozan is that type of talent. The play of Ross and JV of late only strengthens resolve to start asset accumulation, ridding long term commitments, and adding value contracts.


    *I apologize if this is all over the place. I've been trying to type this response for the better part of 5 hours. Life keeps interrupting the Republic.*
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  5. #104
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Do video games supply stats too? That kidding (sorta) aside, one of the best posts I've seen on here!



    I think you already did make that point. The question is what is the "...I don't think..." based on? It's a question because your opinion really doesn't seem to be based on understanding of the game, as in it's way off. Hey, it's your opinion though, so cool. It's just some may see it as "looking at basketball like it's a video game"~Shrub
    And to be frank, I'll freely admit that I may be way off about all this. This is an opinion based 100% on gut instinct - hopefully, an instinct that's being informed by my years of NBA fandom, but yes, maybe an entirely useless, misinformed instinct. Until it goes away though, I'll probably keep chiming in on Demar from time to time. Apologies in advance to anyone who disagrees.

  6. #105
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    I'm not sure why Matt is calling lamarcus Aldridge efficient when his true shooting percentage (51.4%) is about the same as Derozans (51.5%), and he's a bigman playing off an all star point guard, not to mention an excellent two way wing pairing in batum and Wesley Matthews.

    Same goes off Westbrook at 51.8%.
    Last edited by Masai Ujiri; Tue Dec 31st, 2013 at 07:58 PM.

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  8. #106
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    I don't know why people are just refusing to accept that if DeRozan were able to play off a legit number one his efficiency would see a large increase. If you want another example, look at monta Ellis. Everyone was calling him a chucker last year and now he's one of the most efficient guards in the league. Did he suddenly improve as a player? Or is it because he's playing off dirk now instead of being miscast as the man in no hopeless bucks offense?

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  10. #107
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Wake the fuck up people.

    Derozan still has to take a lot of long twos (contested often times) because he's the number one scoring option on the team and has to be the bailout guy offensively a lot of the time. You put Ross in that role and he'll struggle to shoot 40% from the field.

    Derozan is meant to be a secondary or tertiary scorer and is paid as such. For now we're going to have to deal with lower efficiency than we'd like until we get a legit number one guy in here. It's not like derozan would need to or want to take bad shots if Lebron played here. Stick him on the clippers where defenses are looking to stop Blake and Paul first and you'd see his efficiency rise.

    Just look at Gordon Hayward. Based on his true shooting percentages a lot of you derozan detractors would call him a checker. This is a guy who was hyper efficient last year. So what happened? Is he in a 30 game shooting slump? Or is it because defenses are trying to stop him first and foremost now instead of Jefferson and millsap?

    I love advanced stats but they HAVE to be used with context. If not I could reason that trading derozan for Shane battier would make this team infinitely better.
    Bang on! You saved me some typing.

  11. #108
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    DD's true shooting percentage is bumped up due to him shooting more FTs per game than Aldridge. Other than that you can see how stats do not favor the long 2, which is where the majority of both players points come from. Also Aldridge is capable of handling double teams and can take a game over, DD not so much.

    Ellis has been an inefficient chucker in the past, and has become more efficient due to the fact that he has started to grow up as a player. He is making smarter decisions and is being asked to run the offense more than score, and it has resulted in him attacking the rim more. Yes he does have a star to play off of, and gets some better looks from three, but he is able to hit the three unlike DD (which is another reason why he cannot be a secondary option due to his lack of outside shooting)

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    DD's true shooting percentage is bumped up due to him shooting more FTs per game than Aldridge. Other than that you can see how stats do not favor the long 2, which is where the majority of both players points come from. Also Aldridge is capable of handling double teams and can take a game over, DD not so much.
    Newsflash, getting to the free throw line is a big part of efficient scoring. The fact that demar gets to the line is a good thing, not some asterisk that you just skip over. One if the reasons why James harden is so efficient is that he gets to the line almost 10 times a game, ditto for Durant. Aldridge does not score on double teams well and part of the reason why Portland is winning so much is because teams can't double him or lillard is going to go right to the rim for a layup. Teams are respecting Damian a lot more this year and that's making things easier for lamarcus.

    Ellis has been an inefficient chucker in the past, and has become more efficient due to the fact that he has started to grow up as a player. He is making smarter decisions and is being asked to run the offense more than score, and it has resulted in him attacking the rim more. Yes he does have a star to play off of, and gets some better looks from three, but he is able to hit the three unlike DD (which is another reason why he cannot be a secondary option due to his lack of outside shooting)
    No he hasn't grown up as a player, he's performing better because he's on a better team where he doesn't have to be the number one guy. If you don't believe that, then please take note of the fact that he has had a season with this level of efficiency before (actually HIGHER shot over 50% from the field with 20ppg), because he was on a warriors team with multiple offensive weapons as or more dangerous than himself.

    Idk how you can say he can hit the three unlike DD, when he is shooting 32% and demar is shooting 31%, while demar takes and makes more per game. Don't ever make things up.

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  14. #110
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    DD's true shooting percentage is bumped up due to him shooting more FTs per game than Aldridge. Other than that you can see how stats do not favor the long 2, which is where the majority of both players points come from. Also Aldridge is capable of handling double teams and can take a game over, DD not so much.

    Ellis has been an inefficient chucker in the past, and has become more efficient due to the fact that he has started to grow up as a player. He is making smarter decisions and is being asked to run the offense more than score, and it has resulted in him attacking the rim more. Yes he does have a star to play off of, and gets some better looks from three, but he is able to hit the three unlike DD (which is another reason why he cannot be a secondary option due to his lack of outside shooting)
    1st Bold: So what? You like stats. That's part of TS%. Either TS% is one of your acceptable stats or not. You can't just exclude portions of it to support the narrative.

    All Other Bolds: For a guy running around asking for proof, as in stats/facts not opinions, all over the place, with Matt52 as your personal back-up singer/asst, this is a rather odd way to counter a stat that doesn't fit your narrative. Where's your "proof" of these opinions?

  15. #111
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    1st Bold: So what? You like stats. That's part of TS%. Either TS% is one of your acceptable stats or not. You can't just exclude portions of it to support the narrative.

    All Other Bolds: For a guy running around asking for proof, as in stats/facts not opinions, all over the place, with Matt52 as your personal back-up singer/asst, this is a rather odd way to counter a stat that doesn't fit your narrative. Where's your "proof" of these opinions?
    pOOka...my sentence was a statement, so I really don't know what you are trying to say with your '1st Bold:'

    In this case, Nosike is talking about LA being considered efficient, but DD not being efficient even though they have the same TS%. What I said is that DDs TS% is similar to the TS% of LA due to the fact that he takes more FT's (and because he shoots the three), not because he is as good of a shooter as LA is. TS% and eFg% are not kind to the mid ranged jump shot and neither player will have great advanced stats because, especially LA because that is where he gets his shots

    K are you ready for some stats about DD and LA and who is efficient???
    I'm not going to use TS% because it doesn't like either player, I will instead break down their shot selection and percentages in order to look at what are the players strengths, and how often do they play to their strengths (which is the basis of efficiency)

    I'm going to break this into 3 parts, Short Ranged (shooting from rim to 9 feet), Mid Ranged (10-19 feet) and Long Range (20+ feet)

    Short Ranged
    LA - 123/232 = 53.0% shooting. 34.9% of his total shots are taken from this area
    DD - 90/151 = 59.6% shooting. 29.7% of his total shots are taken from this area

    Mid Ranged
    LA - 161/357 = 45.1% shooting. 53.7% of his total shots are taken from this area.
    DD - 78/224 = 34.8% shooting. 44.1% of his total shots are taken in this area.

    Long Ranged
    LA - 31/76 = 40.8% shooting. 11.4% of his total shots are taken from this area
    DD - 46/133 = 34.6% shooting. 26.1% of his total shots are taken from this area.

    So, I have numbers, what do they mean??

    DDs strength is finishing at or near the rim (60%), and as soon as he steps past 9ft, his percentages drop to a paltry 35%. So, in order for DD to be efficient, he should be taking the majority (ie >50%) of his shots at the rim. Instead he only takes 30% of his shots in close, and takes 70% of his shots in areas that he doesn't shoot well. That isn't efficient play.

    LAs strength is the mid ranged jumper, which he is turning in at a pretty good clip and he is taking the majority of his shots from that mid ranged area. Also consider that his close range is still a solid number, and is his second highest usage area. His lowest percentage area (Long Range - 40%, which is better than DD) is by far his lowest usage area.

    Conclusion:
    DD takes a ton of low percentage (for his skills) shots and doesn't play to his efficient areas on the floor. LA is efficient because he takes 89% of his shots from areas of strength, whereas DD only takes 30% of his shots from efficient areas. TS% is great for a cursoury glance.

    So when Nosike asks how can LA be considered efficient but DD not considered efficient even though they have the same TS%, you have to dig a little deeper and you see that LA is indeed a much more efficient player do to the types of shots taken and how many. This same process will tell you that DD is a very good corner three shooter, however, he tends to shoot very little from the corners and is therefor an inefficient player because he doesn't play to his strengths.


    I am really not a stat guru, and really do think that stats have some pretty big limits, but they are used to look into what we see on the court (to help analyze the eye test). Saying that DD has the same TS% as LA and therefor concluding that DD is efficient, is not good use of stats. Also anyone who watches the game will tell you immediately that LA is a much better player than DD.






    When I ask for a post explaining why you think DD is good, I expect to see:

    DD does _______ in game, and he is really good at it because ____

    All I'm getting is either no explanation as to what he does well in a game or I get a "I've proven it, where are your stats??, you're a troll". I'm even at the point at saying this: What does DD do well in a game, you don't have to prove it, just what do you see from him when he is on the court??????
    Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Wed Jan 1st, 2014 at 05:43 PM.

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