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Thread: Raps espn article

  1. #61
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Yeah, I'm not a fan either...just too inconsistent as a number one scoring option, but I was thinking on a team like Toronto where the team comes first, Joe may not have the pressure being the go to guy every second he is on the floor.

    Nobody is going to hand Toronto an elite player that is worth his contract, so we at some point may need to take a chance/ over pay.
    I totally get where you're going with your point, but I don't know if we gamble on a guy like Johnson. He's not really the kind of player I'd want to gamble on. He doesn't really have any real star power (at least not anymore), he'll be 33 in June and his numbers and a bit of his play has declined since signing with Brooklyn. Not really the guy you want to hang your hat on clogging up any financial flexibility for the next 2 years.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Nosike wrote: View Post
    Wake the fuck up people.

    Derozan still has to take a lot of long twos (contested often times) because he's the number one scoring option on the team and has to be the bailout guy offensively a lot of the time. You put Ross in that role and he'll struggle to shoot 40% from the field.

    Derozan is meant to be a secondary or tertiary scorer and is paid as such. For now we're going to have to deal with lower efficiency than we'd like until we get a legit number one guy in here. It's not like derozan would need to or want to take bad shots if Lebron played here. Stick him on the clippers where defenses are looking to stop Blake and Paul first and you'd see his efficiency rise.

    Just look at Gordon Hayward. Based on his true shooting percentages a lot of you derozan detractors would call him a checker. This is a guy who was hyper efficient last year. So what happened? Is he in a 30 game shooting slump? Or is it because defenses are trying to stop him first and foremost now instead of Jefferson and millsap?

    I love advanced stats but they HAVE to be used with context. If not I could reason that trading derozan for Shane battier would make this team infinitely better.
    THIS ^^^

    I don't understand why it's so hard for some to understand this.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    DD has no effect on the teams ability to win. The win streak we are seeing are from Lowry+Amir.

    I'm not going to rehash it as I've provided evidence before, DD isn't that good of a player. Period. There is a reason why EVERY analytical guru out there dislikes DeMar...
    Sorry, but you clearly don't watch very many Raptor games....lol This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I ever read on this site. You must be trolling.

  5. #64
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Sorry, but you clearly don't watch very many Raptor games....lol This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I ever read on this site. You must be trolling.
    You must not know much about basketball, even if you watch every Raps game.

    Please, tell me how good you think DD is. I'm actually curious to see what your perspective is on his production levels and what he does well on the court.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    You must not know much about basketball, even if you watch every Raps game.

    Please, tell me how good you think DD is. I'm actually curious to see what your perspective is on his production levels and what he does well on the court.
    No effect on the team's ability to win?

    No sir, the onus is on you to back that shit up.
    The #1 offensive option on a team has no effect on wins?
    You're getting a little carried away, and it really seems like you haven't been watching the team.
    He's a huge part of what's happening.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    And the Derozan argument continues!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    And the Derozan argument continues!
    LOL! Yeah no kidding.. He's absolutely the new Bargnani on these forums. The ESPN article was quite lengthy and mentioned various things about the Raptors. Had one small paragraph about DD and boom it ignites a war.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    No effect on the team's ability to win?

    No sir, the onus is on you to back that shit up.
    The #1 offensive option on a team has no effect on wins?
    You're getting a little carried away, and it really seems like you haven't been watching the team.
    He's a huge part of what's happening.
    It is completely rediculous to say to anyone that comes to a message board that they 'don't even watch the team'...that's just stupid. Like gregariously stupid.

    The Raptors success post trade has been on the back of Lowry and Amir, with huge improvements from Ross, better use of Val, and Salmons (yes, john freaking salmons) carrying us down the stretch (because DD is anti clutch). DD has declined since the Gay trade, so for you to say that he is a HUGE part of what's happening is a very big stretch.

    'Its like you don't even watch the games' ffs......

    Seriously the bid is still out there...someone please outline and prove to me why DD is a good SG. Please tell me why you think he is good and why I am wrong to say that he isn't...burden of proof lies on you guys, not me...and so far no one has said anything convincing and backed it up as to why he is good

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    LOL! Yeah no kidding.. He's absolutely the new Bargnani on these forums. The ESPN article was quite lengthy and mentioned various things about the Raptors. Had one small paragraph about DD and boom it ignites a war.
    Not really

    Bargnani was just the bigger issue at the time.

    Its the same sort of thing with Lowry, no one is complaining about him right now because he is ballin hard....but we still have to worry about his contract situation

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    LOL! Yeah no kidding.. He's absolutely the new Bargnani on these forums. The ESPN article was quite lengthy and mentioned various things about the Raptors. Had one small paragraph about DD and boom it ignites a war.
    True. But to be fair, there has not been a lot of DeRozan talk since the season began. We're 28 games in now and we've seen DeRozan as the number 2 option and now moved back to the number 1 option; we've seen him struggle, excel, and struggle again; we've seen inconsistency sprinkled with stretches of consistency (I guess the definition of inconsistency ); and we've seen the team losing and now winning over the last 10 games.

    So to be honest it is probably not a total waste of time to discuss DeRozan again. The bold are probably the major discussion points right now.

    Should they move DeMar DeRozan?
    DeRozan is enjoying something of a career season, averaging 21 points per game and 3.4 assists at shooting guard. He's finally shooting 3-pointers at a serviceable clip (31.9 percent), which was sorely needed. He has posted a career-high 16.2 PER. And his assist rate has just about doubled since his sophomore season (8.6 percent in 2010-11 to 16.1 percent this season). He's making real strides.

    Only one problem: He's on the hook for $38 million until 2016-17, which works out to an annual $9.5 million. That's a high price tag for a team in rebuilding mode, especially given that Ujiri has already jettisoned two of Colangelo's swollen contracts. Although DeRozan is relatively young, he's not on a rookie contract anymore, which makes him a prime target to be moved. DeRozan's greatest skill is that he can get a shot off, but he's still a high-volume, low-efficiency scorer in the mold of Gay rather than, say, James Harden. Still, there should be suitors for a 24-year-old athlete who can score 20 points a night. The Brooklyn Nets could use a scorer now that Brook Lopez is tabled for the season, and taking on long-term money is their only option. Can Ujiri unload the DeRozan and Fields contracts for Paul Pierce's expiring deal? Because of his chucking tendencies, DeRozan probably is best suited as a scoring anchor off the bench for a team starving for just that. Some other squads that could use a Jamal Crawford type include: the Detroit Pistons, Chicago Bulls and Washington Wizards.
    To begin with I've been one of the largest DeRozan critics on the site. With that said, he has improved this year - no question. Not only that but the eye test shows a stronger and more confident player. His free throw attempts are up and his ability to find others in position to score has improved as well. His on/off court numbers are also improved (numbers at 82games.com are only up to December 15th). His net Off/DefRtg are improved from last season -2.4 to this season 1.5 and since the Gay trade ridiculously 9.7 (over span of 10 games where Raps are 7-3).


    Here is a comparison of DeRozan versus Harden, Stephenson, and Hayward.

    The individual numbers speak for themselves. If you compare 2012-13 vs 2013-14 he is actually less efficient scoring (45.9 vs 45.6 eFG%; 52.3 vs 51.5 TS%); his WP48 is up slightly (.054 vs .057); his POP is up slightly and still negative (-1.4 vs. -1.3); his rebounding still below average; his assists are 0.2 above average per48.


    I'm still of the belief he is not a #1 scoring option and that causes problems. The reason being he is heavily reliant on having the ball in his hands to score. I'm not sure that is what you want in a 2nd option. You want a guy who can play off the ball and be extremely efficient - much like Chandler Parsons in Houston or looking at the college ranks, Rodney Hook off Jabrari Parker. He is essentially a near polar opposite of Ross. Ross is a guy who is thriving right now off ball movement and catch and shoot - i.e. without the ball in his hands.

    The other issue with DeRozan as the second option is the Raptors were a shit team - going 6-12. Not blaming all that on DeRozan but just goes to show what happens when you have two guys who need the ball so much to score.


    Sadly his scoring stats since Rudy left are eerily similar to past.... except worse with more opportunities. His assists are up, but alas so are his turnovers (low turnover was one of the trademark proponent arguments of his worth).


    The argument has been made he is a #1 option now and and has to take long 2s is bullshit. Look at Harden's shot chart versus DeRozan's. Looking at DeRozan:
    0-8ft 133 attempts .594
    8-16ft 106 attempts .396
    16-24 159 attempts .371
    24+ 99 attempts .313

    Now looking at Harden:
    0-8 ft. 167 attempts 58.1%
    8-16 ft. 46 attempts 47.8%
    16-24 ft. 53 attempts 39.6%
    24+ ft. 165 attempts 30.3%

    DeRozan has the ball in his hands, he is not forced to take long 2s. That is his choice. He could set his man up earlier to take a 3 point shot on a jumnper or he could drive more. DeROzan takes nearly 2 more shots per game than Harden yet scores nearly 2.5 points less..... and Harden having the WORST shooting year of his career from 3.


    I've still not seen DeRozan guard the other teams best perimeter defenders. Right now that responsibility always falls on Ross or Salmons as it was Ross and Rudy pre-Gay trade.


    Consistency is the biggest issue I continue to have. I've sat through people proclaiming in preseason how awesome he was (post scoring, 3 point shooting, rah rah rah!). Then the real games started and he disappeared for about 8 games. Then he got hot as the 2nd option to Rudy - yet the team lost - despite his 40% 3pt shooting. Now in the 10 games since the Gay trade he is shooting 19% from three, yet the team is 7-3 - is that sustainable? Rebounds, assists they tend to be all over the place too. Two things, in my opinion, separate the really good players from the alright players: 1) ability to contribute in more than one area, 2) ability to contribute when you're having an off night. I don't think you can look at DeRozan and say he consistently brings that, in my opinion.


    The reality is the label of a volume shooter who contributes little else is still valid in my opinion - sorry. Since Gay trade on 18 shots per game, 20.7 points, 40.8 FG%, 19% 3pt%, and the only thing saving him is 7 trips to the line a night making 79%. DeRozan is essentially a likeable Gay. He loves Toronto and is known to work hard. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't win games in the long run.



    Call me a hater, call me what you will but I just can't see how you can have a team capable of more than a first round exit (any year other than this year lol) with DeRozan as the leading scoring option. 18 shots per game to get 21 points is ridiculous. Looking at the points other leading scorers on good teams put up The reality is for to him to play his game as he does the 6th man option should not be scoffed at.... although I know it will and that is cool too.


    I'm going try try and end on a little more cheery note than usual: one thing DeRozan has done for me this year is raise what I perceive to be his value in a trade. No longer would I be happy to just dump him for an expiring.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  14. #71
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Like gregariously stupid.
    This word does not mean what you think it means.

    A starting player on a team is always a huge part of what's happening.

    Are you reading the things you're writing?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    This word does not mean what you think it means.

    A starting player on a team is always a huge part of what's happening.

    Are you reading the things you're writing?
    Sayin gregariously stupid to a group of people with the same opinion that are supporting each other is the perfect use of the word...so the real question is do you know what it means?

  16. #73
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    True. But to be fair, there has not been a lot of DeRozan talk since the season began. We're 28 games in now and we've seen DeRozan as the number 2 option and now moved back to the number 1 option; we've seen him struggle, excel, and struggle again; we've seen inconsistency sprinkled with stretches of consistency (I guess the definition of inconsistency ); and we've seen the team losing and now winning over the last 10 games.

    So to be honest it is probably not a total waste of time to discuss DeRozan again. The bold are probably the major discussion points right now.



    To begin with I've been one of the largest DeRozan critics on the site. With that said, he has improved this year - no question. Not only that but the eye test shows a stronger and more confident player. His free throw attempts are up and his ability to find others in position to score has improved as well. His on/off court numbers are also improved (numbers at 82games.com are only up to December 15th). His net Off/DefRtg are improved from last season -2.4 to this season 1.5 and since the Gay trade ridiculously 9.7 (over span of 10 games where Raps are 7-3).


    Here is a comparison of DeRozan versus Harden, Stephenson, and Hayward.

    The individual numbers speak for themselves. If you compare 2012-13 vs 2013-14 he is actually less efficient scoring (45.9 vs 45.6 eFG%; 52.3 vs 51.5 TS%); his WP48 is up slightly (.054 vs .057); his POP is up slightly and still negative (-1.4 vs. -1.3); his rebounding still below average; his assists are 0.2 above average per48.


    I'm still of the belief he is not a #1 scoring option and that causes problems. The reason being he is heavily reliant on having the ball in his hands to score. I'm not sure that is what you want in a 2nd option. You want a guy who can play off the ball and be extremely efficient - much like Chandler Parsons in Houston or looking at the college ranks, Rodney Hook off Jabrari Parker. He is essentially a near polar opposite of Ross. Ross is a guy who is thriving right now off ball movement and catch and shoot - i.e. without the ball in his hands.

    The other issue with DeRozan as the second option is the Raptors were a shit team - going 6-12. Not blaming all that on DeRozan but just goes to show what happens when you have two guys who need the ball so much to score.


    Sadly his scoring stats since Rudy left are eerily similar to past.... except worse with more opportunities. His assists are up, but alas so are his turnovers (low turnover was one of the trademark proponent arguments of his worth).


    The argument has been made he is a #1 option now and and has to take long 2s is bullshit. Look at Harden's shot chart versus DeRozan's. Looking at DeRozan:
    0-8ft 133 attempts .594
    8-16ft 106 attempts .396
    16-24 159 attempts .371
    24+ 99 attempts .313

    Now looking at Harden:
    0-8 ft. 167 attempts 58.1%
    8-16 ft. 46 attempts 47.8%
    16-24 ft. 53 attempts 39.6%
    24+ ft. 165 attempts 30.3%

    DeRozan has the ball in his hands, he is not forced to take long 2s. That is his choice. He could set his man up earlier to take a 3 point shot on a jumnper or he could drive more. DeROzan takes nearly 2 more shots per game than Harden yet scores nearly 2.5 points less..... and Harden having the WORST shooting year of his career from 3.


    I've still not seen DeRozan guard the other teams best perimeter defenders. Right now that responsibility always falls on Ross or Salmons as it was Ross and Rudy pre-Gay trade.


    Consistency is the biggest issue I continue to have. I've sat through people proclaiming in preseason how awesome he was (post scoring, 3 point shooting, rah rah rah!). Then the real games started and he disappeared for about 8 games. Then he got hot as the 2nd option to Rudy - yet the team lost - despite his 40% 3pt shooting. Now in the 10 games since the Gay trade he is shooting 19% from three, yet the team is 7-3 - is that sustainable? Rebounds, assists they tend to be all over the place too. Two things, in my opinion, separate the really good players from the alright players: 1) ability to contribute in more than one area, 2) ability to contribute when you're having an off night. I don't think you can look at DeRozan and say he consistently brings that, in my opinion.


    The reality is the label of a volume shooter who contributes little else is still valid in my opinion - sorry. Since Gay trade on 18 shots per game, 20.7 points, 40.8 FG%, 19% 3pt%, and the only thing saving him is 7 trips to the line a night making 79%. DeRozan is essentially a likeable Gay. He loves Toronto and is known to work hard. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't win games in the long run.



    Call me a hater, call me what you will but I just can't see how you can have a team capable of more than a first round exit (any year other than this year lol) with DeRozan as the leading scoring option. 18 shots per game to get 21 points is ridiculous. Looking at the points other leading scorers on good teams put up The reality is for to him to play his game as he does the 6th man option should not be scoffed at.... although I know it will and that is cool too.


    I'm going try try and end on a little more cheery note than usual: one thing DeRozan has done for me this year is raise what I perceive to be his value in a trade. No longer would I be happy to just dump him for an expiring.
    Nice post Matt.

    I still am looking for a post logically proving hpw good DD is...

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    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Sayin gregariously stupid to a group of people with the same opinion that are supporting each other is the perfect use of the word...so the real question is do you know what it means?
    Right - you know the what then, just not the when
    Anyway, let's leave the semantics alone for the sake of everybody else who wanders in here.

    Anytime you go ahead and say something like:
    "X has no effect on a team's ability to win", your judgement becomes seriously suspect.
    Especially when it's a starter.
    Especially when it's the leading scorer.
    Basketball is a team game - how can he not have a huge effect?

    It's simple.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    18 shots per game to get 21 points is ridiculous.
    21 of a possible 36 is just under 60% no?

    Ridiculous is a wee bit strong.

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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    Right - you know the what then, just not the when
    Anyway, let's leave the semantics alone for the sake of everybody else who wanders in here.

    Anytime you go ahead and say something like:
    "X has no effect on a team's ability to win", your judgement becomes seriously suspect.
    Especially when it's a starter.
    Especially when it's the leading scorer.
    Basketball is a team game - how can he not have a huge effect?

    It's simple.
    You can play the old "sub in a replacement player" game.

    Over this nice little 7-3 stretch, IMO you could sub in a league average player for every player on the roster except Lowry, and the needle doesn't move much. (And I don't mean that could swap out the entire team at one time for replacement players; I mean you could take any single one out, put in a league average player at that same spot, and the team plays essentially the same way).

    Another thing to consider: over the 7-3 stretch, all of Lowry, Val, Amir and Ross' stats have shot up. Demar's stats have essentially stayed the same (apart from FG% and 3pt% which have gone down, and assists, which have gone up).

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    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    You can play the old "sub in a replacement player" game.

    Over this nice little 7-3 stretch, IMO you could sub in a league average player for every player on the roster except Lowry, and the needle doesn't move much. (And I don't mean that could swap out the entire team at one time for replacement players; I mean you could take any single one out, put in a league average player at that same spot, and the team plays essentially the same way).

    Another thing to consider: over the 7-3 stretch, all of Lowry, Val, Amir and Ross' stats have shot up. Demar's stats have essentially stayed the same (apart from FG% and 3pt% which have gone down, and assists, which have gone up).
    You must realize it's not that simple.
    You must.

    You sub in any other player and the whole thing changes.
    Chemistry.

    You shouldn't expect DeMar's stats to go up - he is now the # 1 option (which he shouldn't be).
    He's playing a bigger role in the offense tha he should, and he's playing fine (not exceptional, but fine).

    I am still on the fence about DeMar as a player, honestly, but it's very silly to say this 10 game stretch has nothing to do with him. It's very silly, and every player on that team would disagree. I really think you guys look at basketball like it's a video game sometimes.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    You must realize it's not that simple.
    You must.

    You sub in any other player and the whole thing changes.
    Chemistry.

    You shouldn't expect DeMar's stats to go up - he is now the # 1 option (which he shouldn't be).
    He's playing a bigger role in the offense tha he should, and he's playing fine (not exceptional, but fine).

    I am still on the fence about DeMar as a player, honestly, but it's very silly to say this 10 game stretch has nothing to do with him. It's very silly, and every player on that team would disagree. I really think you guys look at basketball like it's a video game sometimes.
    Jesus Christ of course I realize it isn't that simple. My point was just this: over the last ten games, the only player who I can say has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, been essential to the team's success has been Lowry. He's been playing at an All-NBA level. Replace him with an average point guard and this team's in the shitter. Replace anyone else and I don't think there's a significant change either way.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    21 of a possible 36 is just under 60% no?

    Ridiculous is a wee bit strong.
    If you are goimg to do that...you also need to account for the free throws or the shots taken when he was fouled, which will decrease that percentage

    Rediculous may be a bit of a stretch...but ut is closer to rediculius than it is to average

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    So now harden, who is arguably a top 5, and definitely top 10 offensive player in the league, is the barometer for derozan. Not to mention that harden is owed nearly twice as much as demar over the next 4 years. Cool.

    Derozans stats this season are comparable to melo's 08-09 season, which is the year the nuggets went to the wcf. He rebounds less obviously, assists more, is a little less efficient, and plays better defense, but nevertheless similar.

    Not saying demar is on melo's level or that he's an ideal number one in the nba, but he's not average, he's not overpaid. Period.

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