Eddie Johnson of Hoopshype Ranks top 5 SGs

[Masai Ujiri]

He'll probably just make something up trying to pass it off as a fair argument. Don't even bother

I'm actually really curious to see what he has to say, because his entire previous post was basically garbage.

[MACK11]

OldSkoolKool I'm still waiting for your response to this post:

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post273130

He just hates Derozan so no point in trying to wait for his response, you could show him a million facts of why he is wrong and he still would not care for what your saying

[Masai Ujiri]

The one thing I cannot wrap my head around is this.

Why are elite defensive coaches like Vogel, Popovich, Thibs and Spoelstra throwing doubles at DeRozan?

It legitimately makes no sense.

[Superjudge]

Holy shit, DD is an active part (2 guards move a lot on defence) of one of the best defensive teams over the last few months, so I'm sorry, all the fucking data in the world won't tell me what I can plainly see on the floor, and Derozan is not "below average" on defence.

[OldSkoolCool]

Umm no. Many people on here including myself have explained why we KNOW DeRozan is good (not "think"). Either you are blind or simply chose not to read those posts. I'm going to go with the latter.

And yet I still haven't seen a post...and I read everything here. The only thing you have said is "we have"

Done better relative to what exactly? His turnover rate is only slightly higher (10.4% to 9.6%) than last season through 32 games. He didn't just recently stop turning the ball over. Meanwhile his assist rate is a career high at 16.6% compared to 12.0%. Newsflash, that means he has gotten better at turning a higher rate of his possessions into assists than turnovers. That is not up for debate, period. You are 100% incorrect.

Ok, I'm completely wrong. It's not like he has a naturally low TO% because he settles for contested long twos or catch and shoots. I'm still leary about his ability to not get stripped when he drives.

This is a flat LIE. Stop. He had 2 turnovers in each of the first 5 games following the trade. Guess what, that's LOWER than his season average, so how on God's green Earth is that "terrible at turning the ball over"? Additionally he has only had one bad turnover game in the 14 (15?) games since the trade, which was the game with 6 @ Dallas (to somewhat compensate he had 9 assists in that game).
___________________

Turnover #1: DeRozan improper footwork on the jab-step, travels. (Rare call in the NBA and rare for him especially)
Turnover #2: Loses the ball off Granger steal, swipes at it then runs back.
Turnover #3: Dribbles off his foot then runs back

So please explain to me where the problem is? The play that you just mentioned didn't even happen in this game... I watched the steals too. Yes DeRozan stole the ball then lost the ball and George was on the break, except THREE Raptors were back not just Lowry, and DeRozan got back the same time as Hansbrough (DeMar was leading the previous break off the steal) after RUNNING back to intercept George's pass to Hill. I'm actually not sure what on earth you're talking about?

1: dead ball. N/A
2: if you call that a swipe...that was a pretty pathetic attempt to disrupt get the ball back while holding his hands by his waist
3: runs back...after whining to the refs and complaining, and was one of the last players to even start running back. The steal on this play happens seconds after the video ends as Lowry picks up George. The evidence for this is seen in DD assist number 2 video.

He didn't hustle back on either play, I watched them several times. His turnovers are also from him trying to put the ball on the floor and create, since these situations only account for a small part of his usage (trying to get to the rim), in the plays where he is driving, his TO% will go way up.


All these things you're saying are extremely subjective, and generally we're not going to agree on them. While guys like you will say he makes a mistake on damn near every defensive possession. He doesn't give you a boost there, but he doesn't hurt you. I'd really like to know what your definition of 2-way player is. Is that someone who's a stopper on the defensive end and can get theirs on offense too? Because there is no team in the league that has that at all 5 spots (even the Pacers don't).

Due to the lack of accurate and heavily descriptive stats, one has to be subjective to describe defense. In my post, I go through and say he is the worst Raptor defensively, not that he misses them every time. Don't put words in my mouth. Except close outs, he is bad at closing out hard.

No, no, no. He has been a good playmaker all season as evidenced by the stats I posted earlier. He has been awesome as a playmaker since the Gay trade, averaging almost 5 assists per game with an about 2:1 AST/TO ratio.

K I will go through the video. Working backwards:

Miami Game: 7 assists, 4 from set plays where the pass is an option. 3 are created. 5 assists in the third. Again, lacking that consistency to create. Assists numbers going up because he is passing within system vs chucking.
Washington Game: 5 assists, 4 in the first half. 3 are created (2 of which are passes where he has the ball around the 3pt line and kicks it to an open shooter, not really creating), 2 are set plays. Again looking like a one half wonder
Indiana Game: 3 assists, 1 in first half, 2 in 3rd quarter. 2 created by DD. 1 created by Lowry.
Chicago Game: 1 assist, broken video
NYK: 4 assists, 1 is just a bad TO by Udrih and DD does a simple 10 foot pass to lowry for the break away. 1 is a really broken play after he fumbled the ball in transition. 1 is leaving his feet and doing a bail out pass to Lowry, who hits a 3. His first assist yet in the fourth quarter was the same play that I have labelled under my 'created' title. After watching these last few games it's pretty obvious where he gets his assists from. And it isn't from drive and kick or anything that really breaks down and creates for his team.

Also 16 assists in 5 games, with only 1 in the fourth quarter. For the go to guy he sure doesn't pass much in the fourth...whether or not he is a legit 1st option or not...he isn't getting assists in the fourth

Again, you're making me watch video. Alright.

Here's the link if you wanna see for yourself (click on his FGA) http://stats.nba.com/playerGameLogs....rowsPerPage=25

Shot #1: Missed corner 3 off the pass from Lowry, wide open
Shot #2: Early Post up on Chalmers, bunny shot from 10 feet
Shot #3: Pull up jumper off the catch over Wade, make.
Shot #4: Raptors poor offensive possession, Amir badly misses summer 3, DD gets the ball off pass, misses J with 2 seconds on shot clock (btw these kind of shots are the ones I'm talking about that reduce his shooting efficiency that he has no control over because the team gives him the ball with no time (not blaming anyone, that's what happens when you're miscast as the 1st option), I'll denote them with TS)
Shot #5: DeRozan has to take a tough fadeaway with 1 second on the game clock, hits it.
Shot #6: Vasquez loses the ball, DeRozan gets it 30 feet from the basket with 5 on the clock, attacks Haslem, pulls up hits. Bailout.
Shot #7: Layup on the break
Shot #8: Gets an open mid-range J off a sharp cut, good screen to give extra separation. Make.
Shot #9: Gets an open corner shot off a cut (Wade trips over himself and leaves DD open), prob should've stepped back a little bit to make it a 3 pointer. Make.
Shot #10: Open corner three off the catch. Make.
Shot #11: Raptors run a screen play with DeMar and Amir with 9 seconds on the clock. Allen and Anderson do a great job defensively and DD can't free himself. Amir moves away to give DD space, Anderson switches to DD. Isolation, takes a stepback 3 with 4 seconds on the shot clock. Terrible shot. (Will denote these with BS)
Shot #12: DeRozan takes an open corner three off the catch. Good shot, bad result as he misses badly.
Shot #13: DeRozan attacks, Ray Allen gets bumped by Amir on the screen. Wide open 15 footer, DD misses it. Good shot, bad result.
Shot #14: DeRozan attacks the rim, has the open lane, tries to lay it in over Andersen, misses, probably got fouled but no call. Good shot, bad result.
Shot #15: Posts up Ray Allen, spins away to create space, which leaves Allen behind him. Hits the turnaround from about 12 feet. Relatively difficult move to pull off, wouldn't call it a bad shot.
Shot #16: DeRozan tries to get Allen up in the air with the fake, Ray doesn't bite, DD shoots anyway. BS
Shot #17: DD quick crossover on Allen, creates space from about 17 feet and shoots, misses. For the sake of argument let's call it a BS
Shot #18: DeRozan drives and dunks.

Ok I went through all these, in chronological order I believe.

1) Wide open corner three. Good Shot. miss <-- no surprise
2) Tough shot fading over 2 defenders late clock. You have this as number 4. I agree, tough shot. Make
3) Post up in transition. Make <-- I like when he posts up, most efficient, however he doesn't do it often
4) Pin down, Wade closes well. Takes a fading jumper. Bad shot. Make.
5) Ball offensive rebound. Late clock but WIDE OPEN stepping into a shot. Is not fading. He also misses. Not a tough shot, but I will give you the "tough shot" due to the clock situation.
6) End of first buzzer beater. Make. Tough shot
7) Broken play. Fade-away jumper over Haslem. Tough Shot. Make.
8) Layup on break. Make.
9) Pin down set play. Open. Good shot. Make
10) He's hot. Bosh rotated to him and was sagging, Chalmers was screen well by Amir. Bad Shot. Shot the long 2 over a big. Make <---that damn long 2

first half: 8/10. Good Shots: 2/3, Bad Shots: 2/2, Tough Shots: 4/5. You also missed a shot in the first half.

11) 3pt. Good Shot. Make
12) Birdman picked him up with 7 on Shot clock. Takes step back three over Birdman. Bad Shot. Miss
13) Rushes a corner three with 15 seconds on the shot clock. Allen closed well, was not "open". Bad shot. Airball. Miss
14) Amir good screen on Allen. Open. Good Look. Miss
15) Good attack. Good Shot. Miss
16) Allen ISO. Has Allen beat on the spin, had wide open lane to basket. Allen is at his side/behind. Yet steps back so Allen can contest. Picks up dribble and takes a fade-away. Bad Shot. Make
17) Gets ball on left wing with 12 on clock. Allen ISO. Drives, can't beat Allen with Birdman rotating. Takes 2 pump fakes. Bad Shot with 8 on the clock. Miss <--- should have reversed the ball to Lowry instead of picking up the dribble.
18) Gets ball on three with 10 seconds. Goes right one dribble, cross over into pull up shot, could have gotten into the paint. Bad Shot. Miss
19) Beats Ray Allen. Dunk. Good Shot. Make <--- he should have done this 2 more times.

Second Half: 3/9, Good Shots: 2/3, Bad Shots: 1/6, Tough Shots: 0/0

If you are going to use video evidence, please be accurate because you have are missing shots, have shots out of order and have some pretty bad evaluation of some of the shots (your #2, #5, #9, #11, #12, #15). Yes he took some tough shots in the first half. However he took a lot of bad shots in the second half, and he only took 6 good shots all game. That is a terrible shot selection. I count 8 bad shots. He had 3 in a row to start the 4th.

So I count 3 bad shots in that game out of 18. None of which were on consecutive possessions. Not 5 missed iso shots in a row. But that's cool, as long as we're making things up, Jonas is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.

I'm not making things up, I used the exact same footage as you. If you think he only took 3 bad shots all game, I question your shot selection.

We're almost at 40 games so by then you'll have to believe that he has grown as a player. Either that or you haven't been watching.

And yet DD, hasn't maintained a three point shot, and has only seen his assist number increase over since the trade. Neither of these constitute "40 games".

Saying that a frequent poster doesn't watch the Raptors will forever be an extremely petty comment, get off your high horse

Please do us all a favour and make a compilation of this if you can. I'd really like to see how awful he is at closing out.

Ray Allen 3pt attempt number three. Patterson is calling for DeRozan to switch back onto Allen before he starts to sag into the paint to take away Birdman roll go, then rotates back to Bosh, solid big man rotation. DD just stands there till it is to late. Ray Allen gets a wide open look. DD bad rotation/communication. Doesn't even give himself a chance to close out.

I watched this a few times. Patterson is calling for the switch at 16 seconds, DD does not react until the pass at 14 seconds.

There is one example. Not going to spend time to cut everything together

I'll watch for it in the next game specifically.

Also on a side note. Watching all those videos made me realize that Miami's best defender, LBJ, was guarding Ross while Ray Allen guarded DD down the stretch. Faces the tough D all the time indeed

[OldSkoolCool]

The one thing I cannot wrap my head around is this.

Why are elite defensive coaches like Vogel, Popovich, Thibs and Spoelstra throwing doubles at DeRozan?

It legitimately makes no sense.

Because it forces him to take bad shots and he has historically turned the ball over in the double. Only recently has he learned to pass out/jump and toss it over the top. Good defensive strategies in order to force the opposing team into bad shot selection.

Double teams are not a good indicator of a players skills. You do not want to double CP3, LBJ, etc because they will find the open man and kill your team. You do want to double players who are bad passers/ball handlers.

[Masai Ujiri]

I didn't say he took 3 bad shots per game. I said he MISSED 3 bad shots in the game.

You on the other hand said he took and missed 5 bad shots in a row, which even in your analysis did not happen. So yes you lied and made something up.

[Masai Ujiri]

Because it forces him to take bad shots and he has historically turned the ball over in the double. Only recently has he learned to pass out/jump and toss it over the top. Good defensive strategies in order to force the opposing team into bad shot selection.

Double teams are not a good indicator of a players skills. You do not want to double CP3, LBJ, etc because they will find the open man and kill your team. You do want to double players who are bad passers/ball handlers.

Lowry, Amir, Valanciunas and Ross all have higher turnover percentages than DeRozan. Why aren't they getting doubled...? If the idea is to force turnovers, wouldn't it make sense to double guys who are MORE LIKELY to turn over the basketball? They're doubling him because he's the biggest scoring threat on the team, and has the ability to hurt them significantly offensively with his scoring.

Yeah you don't double CP3 and LeBron, those guys are essentially pass-first point guards. I'm talking about score-first wings right now.

And the fact that you just admitted that DeRozan has "recently" (even though he's actually been doing it all year) learned how to pass out of doubles, is admitting that he has grown as a player which is something you said he had not done earlier.

If he is turning it over on the double all the time, and teams are doubling him many times in a game, why does he only average 2 turnovers per game?

[Masai Ujiri]

If DeRozan is getting stripped on all his drives. How does he maintain the lowest turnover rate of all our starters while attempting over 6 free throws per game?

I really would like an explanation, I cannot wrap my head around it.

[NoPropsneeded]

This is like a firing range and OSC is the target

[mcHAPPY]

You're right, he's not horrible like Jose or Vasquez. But he's not alright. He's well below average.

I don't understand the 2nd half of your post. 2nd/3rd options in the range of 10M are the sort of pieces you typically try to add last. You build a team around a franchise type player, add pieces that fit with him, then when you see some success, add that last piece to put yourself over the top. See the Indy David West signing. In the meantime, having that #2 guy take up all your shots just means a) any potential #1 guys you might have in the system get overlooked and b) you have that much less salary cap flexibility to work with.

And I want to be clear here. I am not saying DD is useless. Nor am I saying he cannot contribute to a winning team. I am saying, at his salary, I expect more than an inefficient scorer who doesn't rebound or defend. I am also not saying he is not valued around the league - his recent play and especially his recent recognition and exposure is exactly why he should be moved now while his value is high.

And yet for all his gains he is still average (slightly above in some, slightly below in others) but below in his bread and butter.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...%93&player_ids[]=318&season=2013

[OldSkoolCool]

I didn't say he took 3 bad shots per game. I said he MISSED 3 bad shots in the game.

You on the other hand said he took and missed 5 bad shots in a row, which even in your analysis did not happen. So yes you lied and made something up.

You: "So I count 3 bad shots in that game out of 18. None of which were on consecutive possessions." <-- where is the miss??

I was wrong about the 5 bad in a row, it was only 3. I took the number 5 off the top of my head, my mistake should have double checked.

Lowry, Amir, Valanciunas and Ross all have higher turnover percentages than DeRozan. Why aren't they getting doubled...? If the idea is to force turnovers, wouldn't it make sense to double guys who are MORE LIKELY to turn over the basketball? They're doubling him because he's the biggest scoring threat on the team, and has the ability to hurt them significantly offensively with his scoring.

Yeah you don't double CP3 and LeBron, those guys are essentially pass-first point guards. I'm talking about score-first wings right now.

And the fact that you just admitted that DeRozan has "recently" (even though he's actually been doing it all year) learned how to pass out of doubles, is admitting that he has grown as a player which is something you said he had not done earlier.

If he is turning it over on the double all the time, and teams are doubling him many times in a game, why does he only average 2 turnovers per game?

Does it make sense to double Ross? No.

Does it make sense to double Val, yes, and they have, and he turns the ball over. They wait for him to start making a move to the middle before doubling, he doesn't bring the ball up and has his pocket picked by guards. It's not a trap double like you would against a guard, or an offensive juggernaught of a center. It's just a second man pinching down to pick the dribble/low ball

Does it make sense to double Amir? No.

Lowry has a high TO% due to the ball being in his hands a ton. Does it make sense to double him? No, for the same reason you don't double CP3, he will make people pay for it.

Does Steve Nash also have a higher TO% than DD?? Yes. Do teams double him? CP3, Paul George and LBJ all have higher TO% than DD. But that is due to DD playing more of a catch and shoot player, where isn't turnover prone.

If DeRozan is getting stripped on all his drives. How does he maintain the lowest turnover rate of all our starters while attempting over 6 free throws per game?

I really would like an explanation, I cannot wrap my head around it.

Lets do some maths. He averages 2.4 TOs per game, or 76 total.

DD only takes 30% of his shots within 9 feet, and 70% from the parimeter. He rarely turns the ball over on the perimeter because he does a catch and shoot, a low TO situation.

But, for arguments sake, let's say that half of his turnovers are on the perimeter. That means for every 100 shots from the perimeter, he has coughed up 10.7 TOs.

For driving, he has 25 TOs per 100 shots at the rim. That's nearly 2.5 times the turnover rate IF half came from the perimeter, which most don't, so that number will increase dramatically if you had the stats from where he turned the ball over.

I can also say that watching him play, he does honestly get stripped quite often when he drives.

DD is getting better, but only for the last few games. I need to see a good 40 game stretch before I say that DD is good at handling the double.

[Masai Ujiri]

You: "So I count 3 bad shots in that game out of 18. None of which were on consecutive possessions." <-- where is the miss??

I was wrong about the 5 bad in a row, it was only 3. I took the number 5 off the top of my head, my mistake should have double checked.



Does it make sense to double Ross? No.

Does it make sense to double Val, yes, and they have, and he turns the ball over. They wait for him to start making a move to the middle before doubling, he doesn't bring the ball up and has his pocket picked by guards. It's not a trap double like you would against a guard, or an offensive juggernaught of a center. It's just a second man pinching down to pick the dribble/low ball

Does it make sense to double Amir? No.

Lowry has a high TO% due to the ball being in his hands a ton. Does it make sense to double him? No, for the same reason you don't double CP3, he will make people pay for it.

Does Steve Nash also have a higher TO% than DD?? Yes. Do teams double him? CP3, Paul George and LBJ all have higher TO% than DD. But that is due to DD playing more of a catch and shoot player, where isn't turnover prone.



Lets do some maths. He averages 2.4 TOs per game, or 76 total.

DD only takes 30% of his shots within 9 feet, and 70% from the parimeter. He rarely turns the ball over on the perimeter because he does a catch and shoot, a low TO situation.

But, for arguments sake, let's say that half of his turnovers are on the perimeter. That means for every 100 shots from the perimeter, he has coughed up 10.7 TOs.

For driving, he has 25 TOs per 100 shots at the rim. That's nearly 2.5 times the turnover rate IF half came from the perimeter, which most don't, so that number will increase dramatically if you had the stats from where he turned the ball over.

I can also say that watching him play, he does honestly get stripped quite often when he drives.

DD is getting better, but only for the last few games. I need to see a good 40 game stretch before I say that DD is good at handling the double.

Alright agree to disagree this is going nowhere.