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Thread: Can't think of a superstar that fits better than Kevin Love

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    You Forget hes probably a worse defender than Bargnani only difference is he gets the Boards! In the words of the great Charles Barkley.

    "Successful Defense ends when you get the rebound."
    I don't think Love is a good defender, but he is not, in any way, shape or form, worse than Bargnani. There is no 'probably' to be found. He is much better than Bargnani.


    Love has a drtg 0.4 < the team. Is a +3 on/off

    Bargnani has drtg 1.5 < the team. Is a +5.4 on/off

    There is 'bad' defense, then there is 'Bargnani bad' defense. Lets not confuse these two.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The argument can be made that Amir does things that contribute to winning (that doesn't necessarily show up on the boxscore).

    There's no denying that Love is the more talented player, but he may not be the more valuable player.
    Amir on the court clearly makes Raps a better team. K Love on the court would likely make Raps a MUCH better team.
    With Love on the court Demar & Ross are unlikely to ever see a double team. Heck I am willing to bet they would both be open more than my fly in a whore house.

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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Bargs had decent one on one defense, at least at times. Maybe comparable to Love or even better in that regard. But Bargs had very low team defensive IQ, and could provide little to no effective help D. Love is much better at that, and is a crazy rebounder, so you have to give Love the nod in terms of defense over Bargs. Really, it's not close, Bargs was a terrible defensive liability and certainly didn't have the offensive talents that Love has to make up for it. Nonetheless, I wonder if our defense takes a big hit with starting Love and Amir on the bench. Amir is so active, and is a great defender individually and team wise. He makes guys adjust shots regularly and is constantly providing great help on drives, plus he isn't afraid to run out and challenge a 3pt shot where necessary. He is the backbone of our defense.
    I'd be willing to bet that MOST nights Love will outscore & out-rebound his man.
    And please lets not compare Bargs team D to Love (or anybody else for that matter).

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that MOST nights Love will outscore & out-rebound his man.
    And please lets not compare Bargs team D to Love (or anybody else for that matter).
    Love's pretty bad though. Part of the problem is he lacks athleticism and length, so even if he can get to a spot (which he struggles to), he's less of a factor in influencing a shot. It's obviously not as blatant a defensive IQ thing as it is with Bargs.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Yogi's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Or not, like blocking the Chris Paul trade lol
    Stern really shafted the Lakers by nixing that trade. The landscape of LA would be so different had he not cockblocked the Lakers. Smh.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Yogi wrote: View Post
    Stern really shafted the Lakers by nixing that trade. The landscape of LA would be so different had he not cockblocked the Lakers. Smh.
    And now they're probably going to get Exum. Poor them

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    Love is not only a poor defender, making him not a good fit, but he's a classic case of a stat monster that makes nobody better, producing a pathetic history of non-winning basketball. This year, so far their best year of his career, they're still under .500, with 2/3rds of their wins against bottom feeders. Meh

    Stat wise, one thing that stands out as a turn off: Many complain about DeMar being an inefficient shooter, right? He's a SG, while Love is a big, where you have to expect greater efficiency. Love and DeMar, 5th and 6th years in, have identical career FG%. Like I said, impressive Pts & RBs stats that don't do near enough to help his team.

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  9. #168
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Love is not only a poor defender, making him not a good fit, but he's a classic case of a stat monster that makes nobody better, producing a pathetic history of non-winning basketball. This year, so far their best year of his career, they're still under .500, with 2/3rds of their wins against bottom feeders. Meh

    Stat wise, one thing that stands out as a turn off: Many complain about DeMar being an inefficient shooter, right? He's a SG, while Love is a big, where you have to expect greater efficiency. Love and DeMar, 5th and 6th years in, have identical career FG%. Like I said, impressive Pts & RBs stats that don't do near enough to help his team.
    Right, except that he's a jump-shooting big, which explains his low FG%. Also, his career TS% is 4 points better than DeMar (56 to 52).

    While Minnesota's lack of success during Love's watch is slightly alarming, I'm not ready to write him off. He's been part of poorly constructed rosters, thanks to a historically bad GM. And his franchise very publicly did not show faith in him when they didn't max him out - the exact opposite of how DeMar was treated here with his extension last year.

    How would he fit here? If the team goes forward with Casey as coach, then one obviously looks back to Casey's Maverick days, where he built a solid defence around a player in many ways identical to Love. Dirk's poor defending was offset by two elite defenders in the frontcourt (Chandler and Marion); the guards (Kidd, Barea, and Terry), though, certainly weren't locking anyone down. Purely as a hypothetical, could a lineup *two years from now* involving Lowry, DeMar, Ross, Love and Val compare defensively to a lineup of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk and Chandler? I don't see why not.

    And then, offensively, it would be absolutely devastating - much more so than that championship Mavs team IMO.

  10. #169
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    Every volume 3pt shooter will have a low-ish FG%, it does not mean he's an inefficient shooter. You have to keep that in mind when using FG%.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Right, except that he's a jump-shooting big, which explains his low FG%. Also, his career TS% is 4 points better than DeMar (56 to 52).

    While Minnesota's lack of success during Love's watch is slightly alarming, I'm not ready to write him off. He's been part of poorly constructed rosters, thanks to a historically bad GM. And his franchise very publicly did not show faith in him when they didn't max him out - the exact opposite of how DeMar was treated here with his extension last year.

    How would he fit here? If the team goes forward with Casey as coach, then one obviously looks back to Casey's Maverick days, where he built a solid defence around a player in many ways identical to Love. Dirk's poor defending was offset by two elite defenders in the frontcourt (Chandler and Marion); the guards (Kidd, Barea, and Terry), though, certainly weren't locking anyone down. Purely as a hypothetical, could a lineup *two years from now* involving Lowry, DeMar, Ross, Love and Val compare defensively to a lineup of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk and Chandler? I don't see why not.

    And then, offensively, it would be absolutely devastating - much more so than that championship Mavs team IMO.
    I apologize that time is too short at the moment to respond in full, but in no way has Love earned being spoken of in the same breath with Dirk. Even at 35, and in his 16th season, Dirk's shooting %s, regular and advanced, current and career, are higher across the board than 25 year old Love in his 6th season. And that's saying nothing about one being a consistent winner, while the other fails. Hell Dirks' roster this year is made up of a bunch of old fogies like him, and discards, with no beast like Pek to man the paint, yet Dirk's team keeps winning, and Love's team keeps losing.

    "his franchise very publicly did not show faith in him when they didn't max him out - the exact opposite of how DeMar was treated here with his extension last year. "

    Hmmm, DeMar wasn't maxed out. He agreed to a very reasonable contract, where Love wanted the moon. Big difference. $16M/yr doesn't make him happy? That's on him, not his team. he's making more than Harden, Hibbert, Aldridge, much more than Curry, equal to Westbrook. If he's unhappy with his contract, that speaks to his character, not his team's, imo.

  12. #171
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    I apologize that time is too short at the moment to respond in full, but in no way has Love earned being spoken of in the same breath with Dirk.
    My main reason for comparing them was that they're both stretch 4s who are weak defensively (in this way, they can be spoken of in the same breath (although Love is miles ahead of Dirk on the glass)) - and then begin thinking about how that would translate to Love's fit with Toronto.

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  14. #172
    Raptors Republic Rookie Niagara Raptor's Avatar
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    I think love would be great on this team and he fits a need but whats the point when he probably ditch us for the lakers when his contract is up

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    Quote Niagara Raptor wrote: View Post
    I think love would be great on this team and he fits a need but whats the point when he probably ditch us for the lakers when his contract is up
    Hence not worth three first rounders.

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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Love is not only a poor defender, making him not a good fit, but he's a classic case of a stat monster that makes nobody better, producing a pathetic history of non-winning basketball. This year, so far their best year of his career, they're still under .500, with 2/3rds of their wins against bottom feeders. Meh

    Stat wise, one thing that stands out as a turn off: Many complain about DeMar being an inefficient shooter, right? He's a SG, while Love is a big, where you have to expect greater efficiency. Love and DeMar, 5th and 6th years in, have identical career FG%. Like I said, impressive Pts & RBs stats that don't do near enough to help his team.
    I think you're really exaggerating the gap between Dirk and Love.

    1. Dallas has 16 of its 28 wins against below .500 teams. Minny has 16 of 24 wins against below .500 teams. 28-21 vs 24-24 isn't a huge gap in the standings.

    2. Why would you use career FG% when the first few years are developmental? It's so misleading as to be almost disingenuous. Demar's FG% as a lead option is considerably lower than his first couple years when he was a supporting player. Not to mention that TS% is a comprehensive look at efficiency whereas FG% is again very misleading. And as lead options, Love is 58.9% TS vs Demar 51.9% TS this year. That's a gap of SEVEN percent.


    Quote "salmon@ wrote:
    I apologize that time is too short at the moment to respond in full, but in no way has Love earned being spoken of in the same breath with Dirk. Even at 35, and in his 16th season, Dirk's shooting %s, regular and advanced, current and career, are higher across the board than 25 year old Love in his 6th season. And that's saying nothing about one being a consistent winner, while the other fails. Hell Dirks' roster this year is made up of a bunch of old fogies like him, and discards, with no beast like Pek to man the paint, yet Dirk's team keeps winning, and Love's team keeps losing.
    3. Dirk's TS% is 0.5% greater than Love this year. Since becoming a starter and really incorporating the three point shot into his game, Love is only 1.0% behind Dirk career wise, and that includes being dragged down by last year's hand injuries. Win shares per 48, Love's current season would rate as the third best of Dirk's career.

    4. Dirk's team is full of old fogies? Maybe, but Cuban has put pieces around Dirk that make sense, whereas Kahn... did not. Dalembert protects the rim better than Pekovic to the tune of almost seven percent. Calderon has a TS% that is THIRTEEN percent higher than Rubio, which obviously does wonders for spacing. Ellis is a second option who can create (25.7% assist rate), whereas Martin is a jumpshooter (10.4%). Of their top nine guys by minutes played, Dallas has ZERO guys under 50% TS (which is considered abysmal), while Minnesota has FIVE guys under 50% TS. (Edited to add: Love has a +17.2 on/off vs Dirk at +6.1 per basketball-reference.com)

    I am not going to say that Love doesn't have holes in his game, because his D is obviously not up to snuff, but to say that he is a "classic case of a stats monster who makes nobody better" is pretty inaccurate IMO. The guy has an assist percentage higher than Dirk ever recorded and is one of the nastiest outlet passers in the game. He is third in the league in win shares. Without him Minny is a bottom five team in the league.

    He's getting tagged as a loser while routinely giving his team his all and I don't think it's fair. I'm not a huge fan of his attitude, like when he called out the bench last week, but he is a legit superstar and a probable Hall of Famer. I would take him on this squad 10 times out of 10.
    Last edited by Scraptor; Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 03:44 AM.

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  18. #175
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    I


    and is one of the nastiest outlet passers in the game. He is third in the league in win shares. .
    THE Ultimate! #1. Numero Uno




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    Those passes are ridiculous.... I really hope MU is looking into getting him on board.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Right, except that he's a jump-shooting big, which explains his low FG%. Also, his career TS% is 4 points better than DeMar (56 to 52).

    While Minnesota's lack of success during Love's watch is slightly alarming, I'm not ready to write him off. He's been part of poorly constructed rosters, thanks to a historically bad GM. And his franchise very publicly did not show faith in him when they didn't max him out - the exact opposite of how DeMar was treated here with his extension last year.

    How would he fit here? If the team goes forward with Casey as coach, then one obviously looks back to Casey's Maverick days, where he built a solid defence around a player in many ways identical to Love. Dirk's poor defending was offset by two elite defenders in the frontcourt (Chandler and Marion); the guards (Kidd, Barea, and Terry), though, certainly weren't locking anyone down. Purely as a hypothetical, could a lineup *two years from now* involving Lowry, DeMar, Ross, Love and Val compare defensively to a lineup of Kidd, Terry, Marion, Dirk and Chandler? I don't see why not.

    And then, offensively, it would be absolutely devastating - much more so than that championship Mavs team IMO.
    Bold: Interesting point. Defensively, I guess the big difference is btw JV and Chandler. If JV could get even close to Chandler's levels defensively, then I'd have to agree with you that the Raps lineup could be just as good as that Mavs lineup.

    And I think Love is just as good as Dirk in many ways, and better in some for sure. Nor would I solely place the blame of Minny's lack of success on Love, actually I wouldn't at all. The GM may be to blame for the Frankenroster (if that is the case, I haven't really looked at it in depth), but the real issue is with Rubio IMO. Between injuries and terrible shooting, Rubio just hasn't been able to get it going and that has really f'd the team. Think about it, if Rubio could shoot, how much better would that team be? A lot, probably competing for a 5-6 seed at least, IMO.

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    Scraptor, with all due respect for the time put in to that response, you responded to my stat stuffer comment with a truckload of stats to say I'm off base. I'm not saying he's a bum, by any stretch, but win-shares/spin-shares as far as I'm concerned.

    Team around him? I don't completely disagree, but I hope you're not one of those that dissed Jose, or DeMar, as "not winners", while scoffing at suggestions that it had a lot to do with the team around them. Look, I'll stipulate Love is very skilled, but beyond stats, I don't think Love deserves to be spoken of in the same breath as Dirk, nor spoken of as a "superstar", nor has he come close to being spoken of as a HOFer (that's just silly). Superstars like Dirk consistently make the players around them better, as he has proven for 16 years. It happens in games, and it happens on the practice court, and it happens with attitude. No matter what group of players they put around Dirk, they may not be championship material, but they're still a winning team. That's what "superstars" do, not just put up monster stats on bad teams. Hmmm, I wonder how many people, who view Love as a superstar, have used that line to diminish the play/value of other players, yet don't see it the same way with Love

    Anyway, you have one take, I have another. Safe to say neither changes the mind of the other, but thanks for the time taken to respond so thoroughly.

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    Those outlet passes could do wonders for us trying to pick up the pace offensively.

    I'm already imagining Ross or DD catching one of those for an easy dunk

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    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Scraptor, with all due respect for the time put in to that response, you responded to my stat stuffer comment with a truckload of stats to say I'm off base. I'm not saying he's a bum, by any stretch, but win-shares/spin-shares as far as I'm concerned.

    Team around him? I don't completely disagree, but I hope you're not one of those that dissed Jose, or DeMar, as "not winners", while scoffing at suggestions that it had a lot to do with the team around them. Look, I'll stipulate Love is very skilled, but beyond stats, I don't think Love deserves to be spoken of in the same breath as Dirk, nor spoken of as a "superstar", nor has he come close to being spoken of as a HOFer (that's just silly). Superstars like Dirk consistently make the players around them better, as he has proven for 16 years. It happens in games, and it happens on the practice court, and it happens with attitude. No matter what group of players they put around Dirk, they may not be championship material, but they're still a winning team. That's what "superstars" do, not just put up monster stats on bad teams. Hmmm, I wonder how many people, who view Love as a superstar, have used that line to diminish the play/value of other players, yet don't see it the same way with Love

    Anyway, you have one take, I have another. Safe to say neither changes the mind of the other, but thanks for the time taken to respond so thoroughly.
    I responded with stats that specifically disprove your cherry-picked, data-mined arguments. If you are going to stick to your narrative without considering objective reality that's on you.

    "Lalalalala I can't hear you" isn't really a great way to defend your assertions.


    Edit: And I'm not sure how a plus 17 isn't making your team better. Nor the fact that with Love on the floor the Wolves have a 108.7 Orating compared to a 93.3 Orating without him, which would be well below the league worst Bucks at 96.4.

    Patrick Ewing's seasons before turning 25
    23-59
    24-58
    38-44
    Elgin Baylor through 26
    33-39
    25-50
    36-43

    The Wolves improved from winning 20% of their games to 40% now to 50% as Love is 25. You can call that a "pathetic history of non-winning basketball", I see a young player improving every year. Sort of like Demar Derozan without Bosh... 27% to 35% to 42% to now over 50%.

    Lastly, Love is on pace for the highest defensive and second highest total rebounding percentages in NBA history.
    Last edited by Scraptor; Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 07:23 PM.

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